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Head removal advice please

5K views 45 replies 9 participants last post by  rcoligan2 
#1 ·
Hi all,
I have a brocken stud in my front right exhaust port, I have tried to get it out without success, and my local welder hasn't been able to weld onto the stub, so I am planning remove the head and take it to a place where they do Spark Erosion to have it removed.

My main problem is I'm not very savvy with this level of work, I have managed to get the AIS off, but already feel pretty confused about what I'm doing, (lot of pipes and connections there) I only have the service manual PDF, (not sure what else is available)

Next I take off the air box from under the tank, then the throttle bodies and whatever else is under there, then the cam cover and rocker arms - is that about right? Do I need to have the engine at TDC, or does that not matter? I expect the valves will all close as I remove the rockers? Do I need to touch the pushrods, or anything else?

I did have a quick go at drilling, (using the flange as a guide) but it didn't inspire much confidence - I'm due for valve adjust, (now over 50k its quite noisy cold) so I thought I may as well try and do this stud right, lot of dirt under there. How am I doing?
 
#3 ·
You'll need to pull the coils and the LCV. I always pull the pushrods and index them.
No need to pull the cam cover (it's down by the right foot peg). If you plan to sync your valves... you'll need to put the front cylinder at TDC. Makes re-assembly a bit easier too. But. If your valves are making noise... A new pair of lifters is a good idea. Pull the Pushrod tube and you'll see the lifters. Pull them with a wire hook or a magnet.

You'll need to secure the cylinder so it doesn't come off with the head. You'll tear the base gasket and possibly lose a dowel pin down in the case, if the cylinder comes up more than 1/4" or so. Get a helper to hold it down, or use wire to hold it in place. Most of the time that base gasket will re-seal pretty well.
I'd buy a new head gasket, and "O"rings for the Pushrod tube. All the other top end gaskets can be re-used unless you prang something. I use "Ultra Black" on everything, but don't glop it on. I use Blue Locktite on everything but exhaust bolts. They get anti-seize.

Have fun!
 
#4 ·
Righto, thanks for that, I shall put the Ultra Black on my shopping list.

Made some headway today, tho its raining out and I'm only working in a small leaky shed, so its slow, just got the main airbox off the throttle bodies, now just pulling pipes and connectors all over the place - haven't yet located the LCV, (whatever that thing is, but I expect I'm going to find it soon) Bit of a nightmare, but taking it slow enough, might be able to re-assemble - if not, I shall have to pay the shop! Argh!
 
#6 ·
Disconnect the battery.

LCV is mounted between the ignition coils.

Intake manifolds need removed. Disconnect the fuel line pressure feed @ the quick connect on the right side & the quick connect @ the fuel pressure regulator under the left side scoop. Remove the intakes complete with fuel lines attached.

Get a square of cardboard & sketch out the valve cover on it. Punch holes in it for the VC bolts. IIRC there are 14 VC bolts of 3 different lengths they need to be reinstalled in the proper order.
 
#7 · (Edited)
Thanks, very helpful, I haven't made much progress today as time is limited, but here's what happened - as it was raining so hard, I was disheartened and thought I'd buy a cobalt 7mm drill, and an 8mm tap, and try to drill it out, didn't get far as it skidded about, so gave up on that and returned to attempted head removal. (when its raining, it rains inside the shed too!!) I wonder if I could get that stub flattened somehow I could drill? Or if it could be got out by heat and grippers? Bit tight in there. Here is a picture of the stud.

http://www.rswarrior.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=147786&stc=1&d=1462905284

On with the head removal, I have got another picture, I circled the allen head which won't shift on the banjo thing, my allen key actually snapped, so I put some oil on it and left it till tomorrow, (I got more allen keys) looks like it might be awkward, not sure how to get past that at the moment. The 4 bolts where the intake manifolds go into the heads are serviceable, perhaps I can remove the whole unit in one piece? With the throttle bodies still attached to the intake manifolds, and deal with the banjo connector after (if needed?) Not sure but it seems from what ChurchKey is saying, I can remove the whole assemble from the bottom?

http://www.rswarrior.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=147794&stc=1&d=1462905748

I'm that worried about snapping of busting anything else inside my bike, If I could get the stud out, leave the heads on, just do the valves, it will be enough for me for quite a while - maybe some sort of dremmel thing could get in there and flatten that stud? Or should I keep whats there and continue trying to wrestle it out? Or just carry on with the head removal?
 

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#8 ·
The stud is still somewhat exposed, yes?
I see no reason a welder can't weld a nut to the end of the stud. Really, it shouldn't be that hard. Why was your local welder unable to do it?
Just my two cents from the picture, correct me if I'm misinterpreting something. If you can get a welder to do that for you, you'll save a lot of time and aggravation.
 
#10 ·
The stud is still somewhat exposed, yes?
I see no reason a welder can't weld a nut to the end of the stud. Really, it shouldn't be that hard.

+1 one on Stellmon's comments here. I have removed hundreds of studs over the years that are in harder places than this. You need a different welder that can tig weld and get the nut over the stud and weld in the center hard. The heat transfer will free up the thread. Very excessive removing the head for no real reason, I would rather remove the forks for better positioning.

Heff
 
#9 ·
There's not much really, it needs a really good bond - he welded a nut on, then it just turned straight off, then he went for welding a new stud on that exposed part, but its tricky, you can only get in from the right, due to the cooling fins, I didn't think it would take any torque, so I didn't apply much till a week or 2 later when it broke off - so I used my stick welder, I could get a strong weld but only with a huge blob, when I filed it down to get the flange over, it snapped quite easy. Perhaps it might have turned if I'd used a bolt instead of a stud, but I couldn't say now for sure.

He welded the stud onto the other stub and its still there cos he could weld right round it, its there to stay, couldn't turn it out tho, he tried a nut on it first and no joy.

I saw a guy online welded a massive blob onto a stud then turn it out, could do with that guy round here
 
#13 · (Edited)
Here's where I'm at for anyone following this:

Been to only other garage in this village, bloke says if it didn't come out with the MIG welder, it probably won't with the TIG - It may, or may not, take it to a welder and see, but that would cost me getting the bike transported (half a dozen miles from here), seems like a bit of a costly gamble, especially as its already been tried.

Bloke next door is a welder, said he'd have a go at my stud at weekend if he brings his gear home - so that could be worth stalling for.

I want to do these valves, so while I'm at it, may as well be ready to remove head if needed and get the stud sorted the proper way i.e., Spark Erosion.

So, today I found the little allen key is working on the banjo bolt thing, no problem there, will still attempt to remove throttle bodies and intakes in one go when ready.

Got the LCV off, bit awkward that!

Took off Left [edit] hand cover, undid that flat head access screw and oil poured out, so put it straight back in - Can I set TDC by turning the rear wheel / putting a straw in plug hole instead? Is that acceptable? Wasn't really planning to drain the oil

I had the bike on the side stand when the oil came out the sight hole, if‘ I'd had it vertical on my ramp jack thing, would it not have leaked? Just its a bit of a pain, as I'd be off and on the jack, if the weather changes / going in and out of the shed, jacking and un jacking bit troublesome, would rather work on side stand if poss
 
#14 ·
Here's where I'm at for anyone following this:

Been to only other garage in this village, bloke says if it didn't come out with the MIG welder, it probably won't with the TIG - It may, or may not, take it to a welder and see, but that would cost me getting the bike transported (half a dozen miles from here), seems like a bit of a costly gamble, especially as its already been tried.

Bloke next door is a welder, said he'd have a go at my stud at weekend if he brings his gear home - so that could be worth stalling for.

I want to do these valves, so while I'm at it, may as well be ready to remove head if needed and get the stud sorted the proper way i.e., Spark Erosion.

So, today I found the little allen key is working on the banjo bolt thing, no problem there, will still attempt to remove throttle bodies and intakes in one go when ready.

Got the LCV off, bit awkward that!

Took off right hand cover, undid that flat head access screw and oil poured out, so put it straight back in - Can I set TDC by turning the rear wheel / putting a straw in plug hole instead? Is that acceptable? Wasn't really planning to drain the oil

I had the bike on the side stand when the oil came out the sight hole, if‘ I'd had it vertical on my ramp jack thing, would it not have leaked? Just its a bit of a pain, as I'd be off and on the jack, if the weather changes / going in and out of the shed, jacking and un jacking bit troublesome, would rather work on side stand if poss
For your timing, remove the left side front cover, then the 2 plastic access screws. The timing marks cab be seeb from there.

Removing the right fork leg is a great idea to get better access to the exhaust bolt as Heff suggested. When you set a nut over the F'ed up bolt, make sure if all you have is a mig welder, turn up the amps so that the metal melts together good. Do it in spurts like pulse welding so you don't melt the nut to bad, then try and back it out. I agree with Heff on using a tig if you could get it.
 
#15 ·
I found the sight hole and crank nut cover Gilly, thats when the oil flooded out, because the bike was on side stand I guess, should have had it on the jack, but its inconvenient -

I get a pretty clear view of the stud there, its more the cooling fins that restrict access - if y neighbour comes thru with the welding gear this weekend, shall see if get any joy there, I may have the head off by then, just depends how things pan out. I shall have t let him get on wit hit mostly, I only just met him as he's a new neighbour - he tells me he don't weld much these days as he's in charge of others, sort of technician by sounds of it - we shall see. Not sure if he's got TIG or MIG, he did seem quite confident about it - me I'm impatient!!
 
#16 ·
Thanks to everyone who has helped out on this thread, so far its going well, I know I haven't gone that far with it yet, but to me this was a real nightmare just to get started - not having done much of this sort of work on bikes for decades, the AIS thing, and fuel injection bikes - its all gobbledygook to me, I know of pushrod engines, but only from old stories, so thats entirely new for me too, I'm just about confident enough to proceed and learn more now - cheers!
 
#18 ·
Got the head off! What a journey its been, nothing has broken so far, so I'm pretty happy!

Only concerns I have at the moment, the front rocker shaft didn't want to slide out, I had to knock it through from the other side, this made me wonder if the valves were still under pressure - I think I'm at TDC, even the right side cogs lined up with the dimples, but when the head came off, I had thought the piston would be a little higher in the barrel?

I tested the valve clearances with my .04 feeler gauge, I don't have anything smaller, I thought I could just about detect clearance at the back, but none on the front - which is odd, as I'd expected them to be rattling a bit - unless the crackling noise from the bike was merely the exhaust port leaking. I hadn't tourqed it much in recent years as I knew the studs were corroded away)

http://www.rswarrior.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=148378&stc=1&d=1463320812
 

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#19 ·
I don't think you are at TDC with the piston so low in the cylinder. Just wondering why you had to remove the rocker shaft from the assembly. I would do a search for syncing the valve adjusters for valve adjustment. If you set the valve at 0 lash you should be good. At TDC push the fixed rocker arm down on the push rod, then hand tighten the adjustable one down till it touches and lock it down.
 
#20 · (Edited)
I just assumed the rockers had to come off - People said I could take the pushrods out, but I couldn't get them out without removing the rockers as far as I could tell?

According the manual, I am at TDC - here's the alignment marks, I just checked them, and they seem to be where they should - a bit worried now, short of cranking her over, (risking moving my barrels) I'm not sure what to make of it

Is it possible I'm not on the compression stroke? I thought this thing with the marks was fool-proof?

http://www.rswarrior.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=148386&stc=1&d=1463322940

http://www.rswarrior.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=148394&stc=1&d=1463323082
 

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#21 ·
Don't know why you have concerns about TDC at this point + the cam cover can stay on the motor.
Remove a spark plug from the rear cylinder.
Remove the first engine cover on the left side 2 small allen heads hold it on. Socket & ratchet on the exposed bolt head. Rotate the bolt clockwise for correct engine rotation.

Put the head on then rotate the engine with your other hand holding the push rods down. When the exhaust push rod moves up/down the intake will follow immediately after. When the intake goes down you are now on the cam base circle install the rocker arms & check/set the valve balance adjuster.
 
#23 · (Edited)
Last time I was doing stuff like this was on a V4 honda, so I was dreadfully horrified of getting the cams in the wrong position on the cam chain.

I just been looking at an animation of a 4 stroke engine and how it works, (didn't have internet animations back then) so I was working pretty blind. I can see more or less how it works now, so that helps

It seems that the dots on the cam sprockets are not assembled as expected in the manual? Thats worth looking out for I should think
 
#25 ·
I could drill it out, but I'm not comfortable with that - I'm aware it doesn't have a cam chain, I always knew it was pushrods, I just never bothered to figure out how they do what they do.

I been to 2 pro's and rang a pal who runs a bike shop, all said scorch erosion - (perhaps thats because they don't take risks) but I think its the best way to be sure not to ruin the head - lot of people prepared to have a go at drilling & welding, but no one has been able to shift it. Haven't seen my welder neighbour all weekend
 
#26 ·
I was just talking about my old Honda there cos it totally did my head in to fix it, but it was only worth about a grand, this yamaha is worth 5 times that, so I'm capable of doing my own work, but I'd rather not, c'ept I don't have the cash to pay for it.

I don't know hardly anything about modern bikes, my old honda VF didn't have fuel injection, blah,blah,blah, lot of hardship over here!
 
#27 ·
If you have 1/4" to 3/8" of the stud sticking out of the head you should be able to weld a nut on there and back out the stud. Go slow back and forth till it gets easier and comes out. Heck just take it to a welding shop, they shouldn't charge that much to do the job and be done with it.
 
#28 ·
Ok, I finished my work (delay waiting for head gasket from the shop)

I had the studs spark eroded and new studs in now, things are pretty tight as far as I can see - the corrosion is pretty bad here in the UK - roads get salted in winter, and it rains a lot too, don't know if a welder could have got it out or not, but there we have it.

Finished my work, but now the bike isn't starting, I see the usual lights and self check thing, press starter and get about 5 goes till its dead battery and whirr under seat - I know its time for a new battery, its been in there 4-5yrs, I wouldn't say its been going strong, but it starts good enough normally.

I'm wondering if there's anything I haven't plugged in right, or bad earth at coils or something? I have the foot-pegs loose, just haven't got round to tightening them, so will obviously do so 2moro when its light, but I doubt any sensor there is related, as it wouldn't turn over I think.

There are no error codes displayed, or blinking lights or whatever, am charging battery as much as poss for tomorrow
 
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