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Old 01-15-2019, 11:47 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Learning about these maps and playing with them is about the funnest thing I've done this winter... Hot ****, this is fun!

I used the 'compare' feature in the power commander software last night. Interestingly, the majority of the maps I've looked at have a very similar curve for most of the throttle positions. Here are my other observations:

One of the maps I got off the powercommander website was DRASTICALLY different. Not just in amplitude, but the shape of most of the throttle graphs looked very different. This map was supposed to have been custom made for a bike identical to mine... but many of the throttle position graphs bounced up and down erratically. I'm throwing that map out the window.

The Burrito map, which has only one fuel table, has graph shapes that are very similar to other maps, including my current map. More specifically, the Burrito map is almost identical to the fuel table 2 on my current map.

I love digging into this data. I'm going to basically smooth out the curves on my current map using the Burrito map as my second point of consideration. Either way, after the knowledge Craig has bestowed on me, I feel pretty confident I can't screw it up TOO bad! Going into this I was concerned it was like playing with the A/F screw on a carb... a 1/2 turn in the wrong direction can lead to rough idle, surging, etc. I feel like I have a good starting map (my current one) and by adding the VBAK will cause a little shift in the curves. Anyways, I'll let you all know what my next steps are... right now I'm waiting for my garage to get up over 20 degrees so I can keep playing with Flamey (I let my daughters name all of my vehicles... the 6yo saw the flames on her and dubbed her 'Flamey', as in "Flame-Eeee"... I guess it's better than my truck... when I got her they dubbed her 'Big Black'.)
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Old 01-15-2019, 01:15 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Glad you like messing with that stuff. Hey check out this post if you’re going to name your Warrior...

https://www.rswarrior.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=266929
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Old 01-15-2019, 03:34 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Glad you like messing with that stuff. Hey check out this post if you’re going to name your Warrior...

https://www.rswarrior.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=266929
Looks like an old thread, but I'm totally going to respond on it. I'm sure we have a fresh batch of bike names by this point!
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Old 01-15-2019, 07:08 PM   #14 (permalink)
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As little as possible.

JK. I manage the engineering department at Terumo Cardiovascular in Ashland, MA. We make Cardio-Pulmonary Bypass procedure kits... which is a fancy way of saying we glue tubing and oxygenators (think 'fake lung') together for folks that require bypass surgery. As for what I do... my group does a little of everything. Today I'll be in a long arse meeting reviewing the design of a new device. On Saturday morning me and one of the engineers came in to fix a piece of manufacturing equipment... it seems very few people these days know how to wrench on things or use EZ outs after they F up a screw. Anyways, I have a few questions on your previous post.
Interesting. My wife works for a heart device company on the North Shore of MA.

Understood about the Saturday work. When I left the bike shop I worked at in college I went to work for a small Semiconductor Capital Equipment manufacturer. You needed to wear many hats. Drilling and tapping were daily norms in manufacturing as well as being good with bodywork and paint, and using dial indicators and test indicators for alignment. Today, it's hard to find someone who knows how to use a screwdriver.
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Old 01-15-2019, 07:23 PM   #15 (permalink)
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The maps I've looked at seem to generally have the following;
1. In the 'deceleration zone', they all seem to have small positive numbers. This implies the stock setting is a little leaner than needed, exactly as you stated.
2. In the 'acceleration zone', they seem to have negative numbers; Again, this coincides with what you are saying.

This tells me I'm on the right track (to understanding all this stuff). Just make sure you point it out when I make a stupid assumption that defies logic and makes you go

I've actually noticed this 'surge' you talk about in my truck. It's a 2015 F150, 5.0L. If I punch it off the line the 'surge' kicks in about 3.5k. But if I hit the button on the sifter and go from normal through 'towing' and then 'sport', the truck has more power down low. I know that it must mess with the computer shifting through the gears, but I've suspected that it also plays with the fuel map and other things to give more power (less mpg) down low. I think I read that Ford uses a servo actuated butterfly valve in the intake plenums that basically allows more or less air... which if the computer controls that then it would make sense that 'sport' mode would allow the computer to open that up earlier. Anyways, now I'm blabbering. Moving on...

My question on the above; Assuming a stock bike with a power commander installed, you would expect to see small positive numbers in the lower left of the table, and negative numbers in the upper right part of the table. This would correct the 'low lean' and 'high rich' conditions you mentioned. My understanding that an aftermarket exhaust allows exhaust gasses to leave the engine faster (less back pressure). This 'easier breathing' should require you to add more fuel, correct? And an aftermarket intake (Churchkey's VBAK) also allows more air to come into the engine, so you have to add more fuel to keep up with the air else the A/F ratio will be lean, correct?

Assuming you were able to tune a stock bike, then add the exhaust and tune it again, then add the improved intake and tune again, how much would the numbers really change? The maps that are supposed to be for the latter situation still have negative numbers in the 'acceleration' zone, meaning the engine is still running rich. But if the exhaust and intake both make the engine run leaner, then that tells me these things are REALLY running rich in the 'acceleration' zone from the factory! Is this correct?
You're mostly spot on, but remember - in 1st gear 5% throttle will accelerate you every where. Deceleration will only happen at pretty much between 2 and 0 percent throttle. In 4th gear, 5% throttle wont pull you to 3000 rpm unless you're headed down hill. So accel, cruise, and decel are actually gear dependent, not just throttle position dependent.

Normally there are positive numbers in the low to mid rpm range from 2 to maybe 40% throttle. The numbers get smaller as you get to big throttle, high rpm. That's being VERY general after tuning hundreds of motorcycles.

There are plenty of bikes with 25 to 40% more fuel added and big positive numbers at big throttle and high rpm with just and exhaust and a filter (Like BMC race filter flowing a metric shite ton of air).

Exhausts play a huge part in tuning. The negative wave that extracts all the exhaust and starts the inrush of air and fuel is going to arrive at a certain rpm range and with a certain strength. That will be the point where the map needs a boost in fuel. If that means the exhaust returns a poor signal at high rpm, then the effect is minimized. Pretty common in street exhausts. Especially cruiser ones designed more for style and sound than out right power.

This can also happen in all out race exhausts designed for bigger engines, with longer duration cams. The tube diameters and lengths that help a street motor make big numbers is not designed right for the road race or drag race engine with porting, cams, and big bore. Change exhausts and the hot rod motor comes alive! Put that exhaust on a stock motor and it results in poor performance numbers.

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Old 01-15-2019, 07:38 PM   #16 (permalink)
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So if for a given throttle position (say 80% for this example) you saw two cells next to each other (say 3k and 3,250 RPMs) that went from -4 to +12, you would think something strange is happening, correct? I'm seeing a couple of examples like that and I have a hard time believing that the stock fueling needs modified in two different directions so close together. My gut tells me that any adjoining cell should not have a delta of more than some number (5? 10? 15?) and anytime you see such a large delta between two adjoining cells that this is a red flag for you? Again, I'm not talking about building a map from scratch with an engine that has all new internals, I'm talking about a stock engine with an aftermarket exhaust and intake.



I think this is EXACTLY the explanation I needed. Let me see if I got this right...

1. If I brought a bike to a tuner with a zero map in the powercommander, had them tune it, and then deleted the map and had them tune it, starting from scratch again, the next day, then I should expect to see cells that may have change by 4% in either direction.



2. The maps I'm looking at typically range from +12 to -16. The differences between the maps may go as high as 8% on a couple of cells but usually are within 5% of each other. In reality, 4% is noise... I believe you're telling me, "Don, 4% is nothing. Stop being so anal. You will not feel a difference between those two maps in your 'butt dyno'. Shut up and ride! If you want it closer to perfect, no easily downloadable map is going to be perfect for your bike... if you want perfection then you will have no choice but to take it to a tuner."

Side note: how much should one expect to pay for a custom dyno tune that is worth a ****? One of my buddies said, "Take it to this guy in X, I use him. He knows what he's doing. He charges $250." Is that reasonable? Too cheap to be worth anything? or Too expensive and my buddy is getting ripped off?
To speak to number 1: In theory yes, but it's possible that the exhaust begins to return a signal at certain RPM point and that point begins the need for some serious fueling. It's not common to see wild jumps in numbers all over the place however. But there could be a range of cells at say 40, 60, 80, and 100% throttle at say 3500 on a twin or 7000 rpm on a four, where they all see a significant jump, because that's when the pipe or cam start working in harmony.


To answer number 2: Yuppers. The variability in the motorcycle, the dyno, and the AFR meter will all add to some uncertainty. Now over a 6 year period, bring the same bike back with no plug or air filter change and you will seriously be adjusting for reduced airflow and weaker spark properties.

I used to charge $300 flat rate for a tune with a Power Commander, Rapid Bike, or Yoshimura EMS. I had to increase from $250 in order to deter business. ECU Editor, Tune Boy, or Screamin' Eagle Race Tuner were more -$500. PITA and time consuming with all the reflashing.

$250 isn't too much if he knows what he's doing. Although I've retuned dealership dyno bikes that had nothing but a straight Power Commander website map dragged and dropped into place - and then the owner is given a couple of 100% throttle print outs. Proving nothing, but looking cool. I felt bad having to tell some folks how I would have just dragged and dropped for a cold beer and toasted Italian sub.
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Old 01-15-2019, 07:48 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by DirtieGirtie View Post
Learning about these maps and playing with them is about the funnest thing I've done this winter... Hot ****, this is fun!

I used the 'compare' feature in the power commander software last night. Interestingly, the majority of the maps I've looked at have a very similar curve for most of the throttle positions. Here are my other observations:

One of the maps I got off the powercommander website was DRASTICALLY different. Not just in amplitude, but the shape of most of the throttle graphs looked very different. This map was supposed to have been custom made for a bike identical to mine... but many of the throttle position graphs bounced up and down erratically. I'm throwing that map out the window.

The Burrito map, which has only one fuel table, has graph shapes that are very similar to other maps, including my current map. More specifically, the Burrito map is almost identical to the fuel table 2 on my current map.

I love digging into this data. I'm going to basically smooth out the curves on my current map using the Burrito map as my second point of consideration. Either way, after the knowledge Craig has bestowed on me, I feel pretty confident I can't screw it up TOO bad! Going into this I was concerned it was like playing with the A/F screw on a carb... a 1/2 turn in the wrong direction can lead to rough idle, surging, etc. I feel like I have a good starting map (my current one) and by adding the VBAK will cause a little shift in the curves. Anyways, I'll let you all know what my next steps are... right now I'm waiting for my garage to get up over 20 degrees so I can keep playing with Flamey (I let my daughters name all of my vehicles... the 6yo saw the flames on her and dubbed her 'Flamey', as in "Flame-Eeee"... I guess it's better than my truck... when I got her they dubbed her 'Big Black'.)
You're too kind. I'm just spreading as much misinformation as possible. LOL

Just keep your original map on your laptop. One of my secret recipes is running the bike at all possible throttle positions and rpm on my dyno (mine is beautiful - I can program the eddy current brake to do anything I want and my AFR meters are non factory units from the original wideband developer from Horiba and NTK). When I'm done I take the bike for ride and ensure there is no surging at cruise. I've learned throttle positions so I know what I'm at when riding most any known motorcycle - so I just observe the position and RPM and tickle that spot with an extra 4% fuel and Viola! Surge is gone. Customer gets a bike with peak power and great feel.

Anyway, Experiment away, you can always go back and load your original map. Just keep track of what you do.
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Old 01-16-2019, 10:18 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Interesting. My wife works for a heart device company on the North Shore of MA.
Abiomed? I worked for a contract manufacturer that did some work for them years ago. Seemed like a good company that has been doing really well in the last 10 years. You don't have to answer if that is/isn't it.

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Today, it's hard to find someone who knows how to use a screwdriver.
Tell me about it! My latest hire is a young lady right out of college. I hired her because she rebuilt a Plymouth Roadrunner in high school and college... finally, someone with not-so-common-anymore mechanical skills!

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There are plenty of bikes with 25 to 40% more fuel added and big positive numbers at big throttle and high rpm with just and exhaust and a filter (Like BMC race filter flowing a metric shite ton of air).
Hmmmm... Now you got me a little scared. You mentioned 3D maps, but I find it easier to look at graduated color coded tabs like the attached. This is the map currently on my bike. It seems like you were expecting me to have all positive numbers in the 100% columns?

Where I'm at: I bought the bike with Bub Jug Huggers and a PC3-USB and the attached map. It seems to run pretty strong. I should probably take the plugs out and post up some pics to see if I'm rich or lean, right? Anyways, I'm going to be putting a Churchkey VBAK on her this winter so I figure she'll probably need a little more fuel-so I should try to modify the map to get it "close to perfect". Then, unless she is running perfectly to my ill-trained self, I'll take her in for a tune by a professional. I'll PM you the name of the person I'm thinking of using... he's probably only 45 minutes from you so you might have an opinion on his tuning abilities.
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Old 01-16-2019, 01:08 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Abiomed? I worked for a contract manufacturer that did some work for them years ago. Seemed like a good company that has been doing really well in the last 10 years. You don't have to answer if that is/isn't it.



Tell me about it! My latest hire is a young lady right out of college. I hired her because she rebuilt a Plymouth Roadrunner in high school and college... finally, someone with not-so-common-anymore mechanical skills!



Hmmmm... Now you got me a little scared. You mentioned 3D maps, but I find it easier to look at graduated color coded tabs like the attached. This is the map currently on my bike. It seems like you were expecting me to have all positive numbers in the 100% columns?

Where I'm at: I bought the bike with Bub Jug Huggers and a PC3-USB and the attached map. It seems to run pretty strong. I should probably take the plugs out and post up some pics to see if I'm rich or lean, right? Anyways, I'm going to be putting a Churchkey VBAK on her this winter so I figure she'll probably need a little more fuel-so I should try to modify the map to get it "close to perfect". Then, unless she is running perfectly to my ill-trained self, I'll take her in for a tune by a professional. I'll PM you the name of the person I'm thinking of using... he's probably only 45 minutes from you so you might have an opinion on his tuning abilities.
Ding Ding Ding! Wife is a Sr. Sales Administrator there.

Sounds like you hired the right woman. I would have hired her just because she knew what a Plymouth Road Runner was. LOL

No! Don't get scared. My point was there are some cases - some pipes on some bikes that warrant changes other than what we have discussed. My point was that you can always find a bit of evidence to go against everything you know. Some one will say, "Oh yeah, look at my map." and sure enough it will be completely different than what you expect.

Your plan sounds solid. I know a of shop right near me that has had their dyno down for years. They down load maps from the internet and send people on their way. It's crazy, but none of their customers seem to be upset. Now, like you say, if you are not 100% pleased with your own work - or one of the other maps from this site, you can always get the full dyno tune work at a later date.

I highly recommend Eric at DAS Performance in Dracut, MA. If I ever sold my dyno, that's who I would bring my own bike to for tuning. Otherwise keep in touch w/me. You never know if I'll have a hankering for doing some tuning this spring!
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Old 02-13-2019, 09:26 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Abiomed? I worked for a contract manufacturer that did some work for them years ago. Seemed like a good company that has been doing really well in the last 10 years. You don't have to answer if that is/isn't it.



Tell me about it! My latest hire is a young lady right out of college. I hired her because she rebuilt a Plymouth Roadrunner in high school and college... finally, someone with not-so-common-anymore mechanical skills!



Hmmmm... Now you got me a little scared. You mentioned 3D maps, but I find it easier to look at graduated color coded tabs like the attached. This is the map currently on my bike. It seems like you were expecting me to have all positive numbers in the 100% columns?

Where I'm at: I bought the bike with Bub Jug Huggers and a PC3-USB and the attached map. It seems to run pretty strong. I should probably take the plugs out and post up some pics to see if I'm rich or lean, right? Anyways, I'm going to be putting a Churchkey VBAK on her this winter so I figure she'll probably need a little more fuel-so I should try to modify the map to get it "close to perfect". Then, unless she is running perfectly to my ill-trained self, I'll take her in for a tune by a professional. I'll PM you the name of the person I'm thinking of using... he's probably only 45 minutes from you so you might have an opinion on his tuning abilities.
I have a power commander PC3 ,, V&H exhaust , dual filters 90 degress restriction ( dont forget to mentation what you have there , it does mather if they are short or long) , churchkey v-bak , ASI block ,dyna coils .. yours are similar setup ... correct ? Have you had it on a dyno so you can see what it does in hp and tourque ? Sorry noticed that you dont have the churkey v-bak
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