Basic pc3 help - Road Star Warrior Forum : Yamaha Star Warrior Forums

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Old 01-11-2019, 08:43 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Basic pc3 help

Hi guys - I'm thinking about doing the Churchkey VBAK this winter. My bike currently has Bub Jug Huggers and a PC3 USB installed. I will DEFINITELY be blocking the AIS valves this winter. My concern is that I will have to mess with my PC3 map in order to optimize the Churchkey VBAK. This whole fuel injection thing is new to me so please bear with my ignorance!

I've downloaded the PC3 software and was able to pull the current map off of the PC3. I believe the map came directly from powercommander. In the notes it says: 2002-2007 Road Star Warrior *Advanced Map*, Bub Jug Hugger full exhaust system, Stock or aftermarket air filter, Fuel table 1 is rear cyl. I haven't verified the map on the powercommander website is the exact same... meaning the previous owner did not play around with the numbers. I only know the bike runs great. I'll refer to this map as the CURRENT MAP.

I found another map on the PC website with this descriptions: 2002-2008 Yamaha RoadStar Warrior European model, Bub Jug Huggers exhausts, Churchkey Big Air kit This sounds very promising so I downloaded it. I'll refer to this map as PROPOSED-PC. I'm entering the two maps into Excel and compare them cell by cell, but by just looking at the numbers I can tell that PROPOSED-PC has a lot more negative numbers.

So here are my first ignorant question(s);
1. Negative numbers mean less fuel, correct? Installing the VBAK will introduce more air, making the bike run lean, correct? So should there be more positive numbers to introduce more fuel and get the same A/F ratio?

I also found a map here on the forum that is listed as:
Skybejef1Wade Map - 2006 Yamaha Road Star Warrior - Sioux Falls Iowa
Bub Jug Huggers, Churchkey V-BAK, AIS Removed
Provided by Skybejef as 'Wade's Map built on a dynotuner'

I'll refer to this one as PROPOSED-SKYBEEF.

Second question;
2. Maps CURRENT MAP and PROPOSED-PC both have two fuel tables. A quick glance at the values tells me the cylinders are run very different (I'm assuming the front cylinder runs cooler requiring less fuel?). The map PROPOSED-SKYBEEF only has one fuel table, which I believe would make both cylinders run identically. So is the PROPOSED-SKYBEEF map corrupt and missing data or do a lot of folks run the same map for front and rear cylinders?

I'm sure I'll have more questions as I dig into this mapping stuff. Thanks for any help you can provide.

EDIT-------------
3. What is the difference between European and US (non california) 2005 models? All I could find were electrical and cosmetic differences that would have no impact on the fuel system or anything that would imply a different map across the pon.

Last edited by DirtieGirtie; 01-11-2019 at 08:46 AM.
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Old 01-11-2019, 04:31 PM   #2 (permalink)
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The easiest way to explain the European having to do with the map, is the normal elevation and weather has an effect on how it runs. Yes some people run a map with only one fuel table. The ability to run two fuel tables is I believe for a racetrack getting every ounce of power situation. You can also check out the "Burrito" map that should be here on the forum with the others.
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Old 01-11-2019, 05:56 PM   #3 (permalink)
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You have some good questions.

Just because you see a title in the notes section does not guarantee that is an unmodified map. Lord knows I’ve not always altered the Notes text when I finished with someone’s motorcycle. For a customer, yes - but friends often have ongoing projects. Maps are always in development and if they sell the bike before I’ve updated, the new owner would think some bikes with cams, porting and big bore kits were running maps for bikes with just an air filter mod. LOL The only way to be sure is to download from Power Commander dot com and see if it is identical.


The Power Commander is only a piggy back. Your bike is running off the ECU. The Power Commander is intercepting the signal and either adding to the stock injector pulse width, subtracting from the injector pulse width or doing nothing to the stock signal. A zero in a given Throttle position vs. RPM cell means the injector receives the pulse just as the original ECU map has intended - zero percent change. A positive value adds that percentage and a negative value subtracts that percentage. The PC3 units were not exactly true percentage for a number of reasons, but just accept that’s what it is and you’ll be good from there. The PCV’s are almost perfect in that regard, but there’s always the voltage based reaction difference. Meaning at lower voltages it takes longer to open the injector. The stock ECU has a compensation table so the calibrator at the factory can do a decent job. In our case you may see that at lower rpm (and lower system voltages) a change does not exactly equal what you expected. That’s splitting hairs though.

Yes, lower numbers mean less fuel, so do negative numbers. Most bikes are delivered from the factory over fueled. This means at extremes and during harsh running high load there are fewer warranty issues. In most cases when even adding a hot rod exhaust, I’ve had to pull fuel from the stock map in many of the larger throttle position cells. Therefore, a good running map set up for individual filters may still show low or negative numbers. You give it what it wants.

There is no corruption in the map you observed. Basic mode in the PC3 is a single shared map for both cylinders. Advanced mode gives you a table for each cylinder. If forced to tune with a single map I go richer to ensure the leaner cylinder is getting at least what it needs. That may be 12.5:1 AFR rather than 13.2:1 or 13.0:1 at the large load areas of the map. I run leaner everywhere else as long as it doesn’t lead to surging. Some people tune to one air fuel ratio everywhere. It works, but it’s not perfect. What’s good at full throttle is not best for light cruise. You don’t need all the extra fuel down there. You do need the fuel under heavy load but can pull some out at progressively smaller throttle/load. Like my mentors once discussed, engines blow up at Bonneville, not at idle. Also, on a V-Twin, If I can read each cylinder individually I would prefer to tune each cylinder individually. So Advanced mode is the way to go, if you can read each cylinder’s exhaust gas through individual pipes or separate O2 sensor ports.

Euro bikes have to meet different emission standards and therefore run a different fuel map and ignition map. The fueling is not much different than the US, but there is a slight change. If you have the opportunity, bring it to a good dyno shop and have them tune it using a good commercial grade AFR meter or 4/5 gas analyzer.

Enjoy and good luck on your upgrades. There are a bunch of good guys on here that can help you out with your VBAK specifics. I’m just a tuner. These other guys are the Warrior experts.

Last edited by craig; 01-11-2019 at 08:44 PM.
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Old 01-12-2019, 03:10 PM   #4 (permalink)
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rcoligan2 - Thanks for the simple explanation. I'm in MA so I feel pretty certain my elevation and weather is similar to most of Europe. I also just downloaded the Burrito map... it'll be interesting to see the differences between the maps.

Craig - Thank you, thank you, thank you! As a nerdy engineer, I love to understand how things work and your explanation is perfect!

Are you still in Newton, NH? That is an even 1 hour from me. Is a tuning something that I could ride up to you on a Saturday and band out in an hour or two is it more complicated than that? (I'm asking as a potential customer, not looking for a 'deal'... I just prefer to deal with people I know have the technical abilities I need and your post tells me you know what you are doing).

Both maps I've looked at seem to have a little more fuel in the lower throttle ranges (maybe a +3 average) but the higher throttle ranges are much lower (more like -8 average). I'll post some tables of the maps on Monday when I'm back at work. But your explanation of having to reduce the fuel on upper throttle ranges even with aftermarket pipes is relieving.

The one thing I don't like is that the numbers on the tables don't mean much. Now that I understand what is going on, you could have all zero's on your map and in reality the ECU is sending different numbers to the injectors. If I understand correctly; The ECU might tell the injector to stay open 10 milliseconds at a low throttle/rpm condition. A zero in the PC3 map cell means that that 10 milliseconds is used 'as sent' by the ECU. But at a high throttle position the ECU might be telling the injector to stay open 80 milliseconds... again a zero in the PC3 map does not change this time so on the map I see it looks like the cylinder is getting the same amount of fuel, when in reality it is getting much more fuel. It all seems logical but as a novice, it makes it more difficult for me to see what 'open time' is actually being sent to the injector.

Again, thanks so much for the technical response. I don't intend on messing with cams/pistons/etc in the near future so hopefully I don't need some wacky map tuning map.
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Old 01-12-2019, 03:16 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Attached is a table I made in an attempt to understand PC3 maps. Can someone confirm I am understanding it correctly?
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Old 01-12-2019, 10:59 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I'm glad this has helped you sort through what you want to know and learn.

You are understanding correctly. The Power Commander map isn't how much fuel is being injected, it is how much fuel is being altered. A lot of times I've had customers come in to my dyno room and say, "I'm running a zero map right now and it runs great". What they don't understand is that they are saying their bike runs best with no ECU adjustment at all and they never should have installed the Power Commander.

In essence it's almost never true. Even stock bikes can benefit, because up until very recently the EPA measured emissions only in the part throttle ranges of engine operation. As a result the fueling would be leaner than optimum in the small to mid throttle low and mid rpm areas. Usually enough to cause a slight surge. It feels like some one is nudging the back of the seat while you ride at steady throttle. I like to call it the third gear polka.

Since larger throttle and higher ranges were deemed to be infrequently used and transient operation makes it hard to measure the EPA excused that area of the map. As a result, extra fuel was usually added as a safeguard. Nothing horrible, but just slightly rich. Enough so that 100 horse engine might free up 2 or so HP just by reducing fueling a little.

Today it's slightly different as the EPA measures noise and emissions over a wider range of RPM and they are now sound testing where peak toque is produced and not the fixed rpm for inline fours and sixes and lower rpm for V-twins and triples. Therefore a 2018 bike is slightly different but close enough for argument's sake.

The factory MAP in the ECU is a nice 3 dimensional topographical map that can be viewed and understood quickly and has meaning the what's going on. (Edit here: What I mean by that is that to you - as an engineer, you'll see that map and it will tell you what you are looking for quickly. I'm sure you'd go, "Ah Ha! That's it. Exactly what I wanted to analyze.") The Power Commander map as discussed has little to do with overall fueling. Only what is being changed. So in your example you are 100% correct. That 10 msec pulse width that occurs in a 0 cell on the Power Commander screen (say 10% throttle at 2000 rpm) is delivering 10 msec of fuel. The 100% throttle 4500 rpm cell with a -8 in it has simply cut 6.4 msec of fuel from an 80 msec pulse resulting in 73.6 msec of fuel delivery. So, the 0 is delivering 10 msec of fuel and the -8 is delivering 7 and a half times that! It's still useful to see it in 3D, but as an engineer, knowing what you are looking at is going to be very helpful.

My dyno software actually displays a pretty cool graphic when it imports a Rapid Bike or Power Commander map. I can see if it's fairly flat or all over the place. All over the place is a warning that there is a lot of tuning to do.

Also, bear in mind that 3% means almost nothing to me. I've seen forums with people arguing over who did the best tuning job and I can say that there folks a are wasting breath and keystrokes in some cases.

If I see a difference of 4% or less between Power Commander maps they are essentially the same. If you put two tuners back to back on the same dyno and have them work their magic if they have a delta of 4 (or think more like Standard Deviation of 4 or less) then they are done. A 4% fueling change is the difference of about 1/2 and AFR unit. (Edit here: Half an AFR is pretty big as far as a tuning step is concerned. If I want 13.0 I won't leave a bike at 13.5 and call it good. I'm speaking to varaibles between tuners and retests. See my 12.8 vs 13.2 example below. In that case they hover around the target within 1/2 AFR of each other.) So if the bike is running at 13.5:1 and I want to run at 13.0:1, I'll add 4% to what ever is in the PC window. If it was a 6, I'll make it a 10 and expect that I should hit about 13.0:1 AFR. There are bunch of other factors so it's not always perfect, but mathematically that's what it should take. Imagine both tuners were striving for 13 to 1 in a certain cell. In my example one has entered an 8 and the other has 12. In the worst case one has delivered an AFR around 12.8:1 while the other has delivered 13.2:1. I guarantee you will not feel it.

Realistically you wouldn't get the same AFR value again anyway on your next dyno run at that point - unless all the previous cells you passed through were just as well tuned and the rate of acceleration was slowed way down. The exhaust contamination and uncertainty of flow will always leave a variable. Add to that that shop dynos are not quarter million dollar dynos with perfect servo control loops on their eddy brakes and they are running several hundred dollar AFR meters vs multi thousand dollar AFR meters and its all more uncertainty added to the mix.

Anyway, I blather too much, but I think you get the idea. If you see -20 and +30 someone is making some serious changes to that bike's stock fueling. -10 to +12 is a pretty flat Power Commander map and tells be although there is a shift in fuel requirements due to the efficiency of the pipe and air box mods, the shape of the curve isn't wildly different. I hope that makes sense.

Last edited by craig; 01-13-2019 at 12:13 PM.
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Old 01-13-2019, 12:51 AM   #7 (permalink)
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I didn't fully answer your questions in your post.

Yes. I am still in Newton NH.

I closed the dyno shop to the public, but have not ruled out the possibility of tuning for others again. I've learned that I'm not getting my time back, so after discussions with my wife I made the tough decision. This allowed me so much time with my 4 year old daughter and 15 year old son, that reviewing this past year showed it was a great decision. Additionally I got in a massive amount of street riding time that I had missed.

It's not all bad as I still have the dyno room and all my equipment. I just finished a friend's 110" Tire Shredder Road King build. With just an air filter kit and gutted mufflers it made 74 hp and 86 ft-lbs @ 96 inches. With a quick tune and not reving very high (5600 vs all the way to 6300 rpm) we saw 118 hp and 131 ft-lbs. I'm confident we will see 120 ponies in the spring. At only 40% throttle it makes more power than it did at 100% throttle. That's a pretty fun project - and I love sorting through the data - so I've not lost all my fun, just focusing on what gives the most pleasure and most available time to be me.

I also crew for Team Nitrocycles Top Fuel Harley Davidson when I have time. That's my handsome self manning the starter cart in the video link below. My job is starting, noting rpm, temp and scanning wildly for fuel system, air system and lubricant system leaks. Yes, I get to play with some pretty cool stuff.





I meant to ask what you do as an engineer. If you don't mind mentioning on a public forum.
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Last edited by craig; 01-13-2019 at 01:26 AM. Reason: Added question i forgot to ask. Doh!
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Old 01-14-2019, 09:19 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by craig View Post
I meant to ask what you do as an engineer.
As little as possible.

JK. I manage the engineering department at Terumo Cardiovascular in Ashland, MA. We make Cardio-Pulmonary Bypass procedure kits... which is a fancy way of saying we glue tubing and oxygenators (think 'fake lung') together for folks that require bypass surgery. As for what I do... my group does a little of everything. Today I'll be in a long arse meeting reviewing the design of a new device. On Saturday morning me and one of the engineers came in to fix a piece of manufacturing equipment... it seems very few people these days know how to wrench on things or use EZ outs after they F up a screw. Anyways, I have a few questions on your previous post.
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Old 01-14-2019, 10:00 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig View Post
Even stock bikes can benefit, because up until very recently the EPA measured emissions only in the part throttle ranges of engine operation. As a result the fueling would be leaner than optimum in the small to mid throttle low and mid rpm areas. Usually enough to cause a slight surge. It feels like some one is nudging the back of the seat while you ride at steady throttle. I like to call it the third gear polka.

Since larger throttle and higher ranges were deemed to be infrequently used and transient operation makes it hard to measure the EPA excused that area of the map. As a result, extra fuel was usually added as a safeguard. Nothing horrible, but just slightly rich. Enough so that 100 horse engine might free up 2 or so HP just by reducing fueling a little.
The maps I've looked at seem to generally have the following;
1. In the 'deceleration zone', they all seem to have small positive numbers. This implies the stock setting is a little leaner than needed, exactly as you stated.
2. In the 'acceleration zone', they seem to have negative numbers; Again, this coincides with what you are saying.

This tells me I'm on the right track (to understanding all this stuff). Just make sure you point it out when I make a stupid assumption that defies logic and makes you go

I've actually noticed this 'surge' you talk about in my truck. It's a 2015 F150, 5.0L. If I punch it off the line the 'surge' kicks in about 3.5k. But if I hit the button on the sifter and go from normal through 'towing' and then 'sport', the truck has more power down low. I know that it must mess with the computer shifting through the gears, but I've suspected that it also plays with the fuel map and other things to give more power (less mpg) down low. I think I read that Ford uses a servo actuated butterfly valve in the intake plenums that basically allows more or less air... which if the computer controls that then it would make sense that 'sport' mode would allow the computer to open that up earlier. Anyways, now I'm blabbering. Moving on...

My question on the above; Assuming a stock bike with a power commander installed, you would expect to see small positive numbers in the lower left of the table, and negative numbers in the upper right part of the table. This would correct the 'low lean' and 'high rich' conditions you mentioned. My understanding that an aftermarket exhaust allows exhaust gasses to leave the engine faster (less back pressure). This 'easier breathing' should require you to add more fuel, correct? And an aftermarket intake (Churchkey's VBAK) also allows more air to come into the engine, so you have to add more fuel to keep up with the air else the A/F ratio will be lean, correct?

Assuming you were able to tune a stock bike, then add the exhaust and tune it again, then add the improved intake and tune again, how much would the numbers really change? The maps that are supposed to be for the latter situation still have negative numbers in the 'acceleration' zone, meaning the engine is still running rich. But if the exhaust and intake both make the engine run leaner, then that tells me these things are REALLY running rich in the 'acceleration' zone from the factory! Is this correct?
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Old 01-14-2019, 10:22 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by craig View Post
My dyno software actually displays a pretty cool graphic when it imports a Rapid Bike or Power Commander map. I can see if it's fairly flat or all over the place. All over the place is a warning that there is a lot of tuning to do.
So if for a given throttle position (say 80% for this example) you saw two cells next to each other (say 3k and 3,250 RPMs) that went from -4 to +12, you would think something strange is happening, correct? I'm seeing a couple of examples like that and I have a hard time believing that the stock fueling needs modified in two different directions so close together. My gut tells me that any adjoining cell should not have a delta of more than some number (5? 10? 15?) and anytime you see such a large delta between two adjoining cells that this is a red flag for you? Again, I'm not talking about building a map from scratch with an engine that has all new internals, I'm talking about a stock engine with an aftermarket exhaust and intake.


Quote:
Originally Posted by craig View Post
Also, bear in mind that 3% means almost nothing to me. I've seen forums with people arguing over who did the best tuning job and I can say that there folks a are wasting breath and keystrokes in some cases.

If I see a difference of 4% or less between Power Commander maps they are essentially the same. If you put two tuners back to back on the same dyno and have them work their magic if they have a delta of 4 (or think more like Standard Deviation of 4 or less) then they are done. A 4% fueling change is the difference of about 1/2 and AFR unit. (Edit here: Half an AFR is pretty big as far as a tuning step is concerned. If I want 13.0 I won't leave a bike at 13.5 and call it good. I'm speaking to variables between tuners and retests. See my 12.8 vs 13.2 example below. In that case they hover around the target within 1/2 AFR of each other.) So if the bike is running at 13.5:1 and I want to run at 13.0:1, I'll add 4% to what ever is in the PC window. If it was a 6, I'll make it a 10 and expect that I should hit about 13.0:1 AFR. There are bunch of other factors so it's not always perfect, but mathematically that's what it should take. Imagine both tuners were striving for 13 to 1 in a certain cell. In my example one has entered an 8 and the other has 12. In the worst case one has delivered an AFR around 12.8:1 while the other has delivered 13.2:1. I guarantee you will not feel it.

Realistically you wouldn't get the same AFR value again anyway on your next dyno run at that point - unless all the previous cells you passed through were just as well tuned and the rate of acceleration was slowed way down. The exhaust contamination and uncertainty of flow will always leave a variable. Add to that that shop dynos are not quarter million dollar dynos with perfect servo control loops on their eddy brakes and they are running several hundred dollar AFR meters vs multi thousand dollar AFR meters and its all more uncertainty added to the mix.

Anyway, I blather too much, but I think you get the idea. If you see -20 and +30 someone is making some serious changes to that bike's stock fueling. -10 to +12 is a pretty flat Power Commander map and tells be although there is a shift in fuel requirements due to the efficiency of the pipe and air box mods, the shape of the curve isn't wildly different. I hope that makes sense.
I think this is EXACTLY the explanation I needed. Let me see if I got this right...

1. If I brought a bike to a tuner with a zero map in the powercommander, had them tune it, and then deleted the map and had them tune it, starting from scratch again, the next day, then I should expect to see cells that may have change by 4% in either direction.

2. The maps I'm looking at typically range from +12 to -16. The differences between the maps may go as high as 8% on a couple of cells but usually are within 5% of each other. In reality, 4% is noise... I believe you're telling me, "Don, 4% is nothing. Stop being so anal. You will not feel a difference between those two maps in your 'butt dyno'. Shut up and ride! If you want it closer to perfect, no easily downloadable map is going to be perfect for your bike... if you want perfection then you will have no choice but to take it to a tuner."

Side note: how much should one expect to pay for a custom dyno tune that is worth a ****? One of my buddies said, "Take it to this guy in X, I use him. He knows what he's doing. He charges $250." Is that reasonable? Too cheap to be worth anything? or Too expensive and my buddy is getting ripped off?
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