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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I received some advise today from a customer's facility maintenance manager and put it into google tonight. Tuning into our language for the Warrior battery, to start with the 2002 service manual indicates the it has a "Ten Hour Rate Amperage" of 1.2A. Can someone check a newer service manual (try page 2-17 or close by) to see if it shows the sameinfo? It probably does.


It turns out this is a different method of rating deep cycle automotive batteries and has a different test standard than CCA, and may not be able to be calculated or converted back-and-forth because the test method and temperatures are different. So I did some reading to get some battery-specific grass-roots easy to understand basic info that I am probably misunderstanding and misinterpreting, however the gent this afternoon tried to point me in the right direction.


(you can checkout these citations later to be sure).


http://www.windpowerunlimited.com/batteries/Amp_Hours.htm


http://www.exploroz.com/Forum/Topic/49872/Questions_about_Amp_Hours.aspx


Generally the citations say:


"Cranking batteries are rated at CCA (Cold Cranking Amps), the power it can provide instantaneously and for a very short period. Deep Cycle batteries are rated at AH (Amp Hours). [Warrior battery is 12ah]


The 20 hour rate is an industry 'standard' for deep cycle batteries, but is not used by all manufacturers. Some quote at different rates, while some quote at multiple rates or show a graph. What it means is that if the battery is run down from fully charged to flat over a 20 hour period, it will provide "x" Amps of power. [Warrior battery is 10-hour1.2 amps - not sure how to relate this]


The faster a battery is discharged, the less total power it will provide. So it is always worth checking the standard used for the specifications. A 100AH battery quoted at the 10 hour rate will supply more power than a battery quoted at the 20 hour rate and a lot more than one quoted at the 100 hour rate."


"An amp-hour is one amp for one hour, or 10 amps for 1/10 of an hour and so forth. It is amps X hours. If you have something that pulls 20 amps, and you use it for 20 minutes, then the amp-hours used would be 20 (amps) X .333 (hours), or 6.67 AH. "


--------- There's a chart to determine the linear power consumption factor which in this case is 88% so 12ah x0.88 = 10.56ah.


But for this example it ignores linear power consumption.Its a 12ah battery, so it can provide 12 amps for one hour, or 120 amps for 1/10th hour (6 minutes). Or 10.56ah = 10.56a for an hour, or 105a for 6 minutes.


The Warrior starter motor is .9kW or 900 watts. Forgetting about temperatures and variables, just in theory,900w / 12v = the starter draws 75 amps. A 12 ah battery can provide 75 amps for about 9.6 minutes, is that right?


Checking the math, 12ah = 12 amps for one hour (60 minutes). 9.6-minutes is 0.16 hours.75a x 0.16hours = 12ah. Again the battery can provide 75 amps for 9.6 minutes, assuming a full charge (ignoring temperature and other variables).





I recognize there are other factors I'm too ignorant to know about - I'm not a battery engineer just a biker! From the material on the net there doesn't appear to be a direct conversion from 10-hour-amperage to cold-cranking-amperage.


Does anyone know of some secret conversion factor we can use to convert10.56ah to CCA?
 

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I understand your quest for knowledge concerning batteries, but why focus so much attention on it? It's just a battery. It's only purpose is to turn a starter motor. I just don't see the advantage of getting some special deep cycle battery or whatever you are trying to talk about. As long as it starts the bike, who cares.
 

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It might just be a battery but to some the quest for knowledge and the thirst for data on things is a very pleasurable obsession. I personally enjoy reading this information, simply because I love physics and chemistry....all shapes and forms.....recently I spend quite deal of my spare time reading about HIDs, headlamp optics, ballasts, etc....peeling the layers of an object and reducing it's characteristics to it's basic physical and chemical characteristics is a purely human endeavor.
 

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Rx Warrior said:
It might just be a battery but to some the quest for knowledge and the thirst for data on things is a very pleasurable obsession.

#1
..this is exactly how the knowledge here got to be so good... taking care of the detail and posting..as long as we don't loose our sense of humour whilst on a quest....no problem i can see...me to i love seeing info and ideas coming in..
cheers tom ba
 

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plus its always a real pizzer when on a cold day your stock battery (after being on a tender) flops over and barely starts your bike and resets your clock etc
 

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I don't know if this will help, I'm not real good with electricity but my '06


manual states the battery capacity as 12.0 Ah. The battery itself, which is


OEM (GSYUASA GT14B-4), shows the battery as 12v 12Ah/10HR, which


I'm guessing is the amp hour rating.
 

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What a great topic :)

To be able to answer your CCA question accurately, we must *fully* understand what a CCA (cold cranking amp) really is. The definition of the Cold-Cranking Amperage (CCA) of an automotive battery is the amount of current a given battery can deliver for 30 seconds at zero (0) degrees F without dropping below a specified cutoff voltage (manufacturer-specific, but usually 10.5 volts for a 12 volt battery).

In other words, if you look at the Voltage discharge graph for a given battery you will normally see the graph gradually decline and then at one point seem to fall to 0. This is usually measured at some standard test load and the graph will represent hours of discharge time. Now, when measuring CCAs, that graph would be shrunken to only 30 seconds. As I stated before, the usual cutoff voltage for a 12-volt battery is ~10.5 volts. So whatever the amperage the battery can deliver at 0 degrees F for the full 30 seconds would be the CCA number.

Taking this just a touch further, as every battery is made a little different (i.e. different chemicals, different amount of chemicals, different heat transfer, different... well... you get the idea), the only way to calculate the CCA for a battery is to test it. You basically short the battery and by measuring the amperage generated while you are above the cutoff would give you your value.

Hope that wasn't *too* redundant :-/
 

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To my knoledge there is no conversion for hr to cca primarily because they are measuring a similar function differently the hr rating is made over time (hours) and the cca rating is instantanious. They are both rates of discharge but depending on the design purpose of the battery they will be different. Batterys with an hr rating are typically designed for low constant consumption such as a ups for a computer or a trolling motor on a boat and are expected to be discharged fully and re-charged on repeated basis, where as batterys with a cca rating (typically lead acid) are designed to provide fast discharge (but not fully) very quickly and charged before they reach depleation once fully discharged they almost never come back to full strength and battery life is substantially shortend. This is quite possibly the reason why so many have issues with weak starting, the hr batterys while holding load over a longer period of time than a cca (and generally have a longer lifespan overall) cannot discharge at a rate high enough to give our starters the power they require (at times)





Hope this helps
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
These are both excellent responses. I should have been more clear. In cases when there is no possible mathmatical conversion formula, the industry comes-up with a thumbnail conversion formula. That might be what resellers are using to claim CCA ratings for batteries with no CCA data on their manufacturer's websites. Hey its a shot in the dark!



blackhatrob said:
What a great topic :)


To be able to answer your CCA question accurately, we must *fully* understand what a CCA (cold cranking amp) really is. The definition of the Cold-Cranking Amperage (CCA) of an automotive battery is the amount of current a given battery can deliver for 30 seconds at zero (0) degrees F without dropping below a specified cutoff voltage (manufacturer-specific, but usually 10.5 volts for a 12 volt battery).


In other words, if you look at the Voltage discharge graph for a given battery you will normally see the graph gradually decline and then at one point seem to fall to 0. This is usually measured at some standard test load and the graph will represent hours of discharge time. Now, when measuring CCAs, that graph would be shrunken to only 30 seconds. As I stated before, the usual cutoff voltage for a 12-volt battery is ~10.5 volts. So whatever the amperage the battery can deliver at 0 degrees F for the full 30 seconds would be the CCA number.


Taking this just a touch further, as every battery is made a little different (i.e. different chemicals, different amount of chemicals, different heat transfer, different... well... you get the idea), the only way to calculate the CCA for a battery is to test it. You basically short the battery and by measuring the amperage generated while you are above the cutoff would give you your value.


Hope that wasn't *too* redundant :-/

warpig said:
To my knoledge there is no conversion for hr to cca primarily because they are measuring a similar function differently the hr rating is made over time (hours) and the cca rating is instantanious. They are both rates of discharge but depending on the design purpose of the battery they will be different. Batterys with an hr rating are typically designed for low constant consumption such as a ups for a computer or a trolling motor on a boat and are expected to be discharged fully and re-charged on repeated basis, where as batterys with a cca rating (typically lead acid) are designed to provide fast discharge (but not fully) very quickly and charged before they reach depleation once fully discharged they almost never come back to full strength and battery life is substantially shortend. This is quite possibly the reason why so many have issues with weak starting, the hr batterys while holding load over a longer period of time than a cca (and generally have a longer lifespan overall) cannot discharge at a rate high enough to give our starters the power they require (at times)


Hope this helps
 

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hmm.... Interesting idea. I'm not sure I've ever heard of resellers using a guess for a batteries' CCAs. It would be silly for them to do so when it is (or should be) a reproducable value for each battery. But I'm not saying they don't... I just don't know :)

I've always been under the understanding that by knowing the number of cylinders and their compression, you can calculate how many CCAs you need in a battery to turn the engine over. From this I assumed there was some standard. But in my experience, standards are really just a group of one-offs lol
 

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cool. let me mull over the document a while.

Something that may be better to compare is regular cranking amps. Those are more often than not available. That what I usually look for... but i'm also in florida where it doesn't get below 32 often, and when it does I don't ride :)
 

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I was actually looking up the actual value (as I couldn't remember) and based on the literature I have, for a lead-acid battery it is 1.2 volts per cell... so a 6 cell battery would need to maintain >= 7.2 volts over the 30 second period...
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Yes, that is the number that is in question. Google "GT14B-4" and every other battery comes up 135cca and the batteries are all the same size and type. GS USAwas reportedly asking for confirmation from Japan on the CCA.


You guys are sharp as h-e-double-l. The big picture is this:


While there are several members reporting they have (or had) a different OEM battery number in their 2002, the OEM battery for all 2003+ Warriors seems to have been theGS model GT14B-4. While the OEM battery CCA wasn't published (or at least nobody has reported finding the CCA before)the batteryhas been sold in the aftermarket for years as 135CCA.


Several members have reported that when they replaced their battery with a 200CCA battery they stopped having low-voltage problems on hard-winter cold starts, and as the battery aged. Others with 108ci and 110ci jugs reported the upgrade to a 200CCA battery solved the starter torque problems of turning over a high-compression motor mod, and battery life improved.


Then the GS document referred to above (nice detective work BTW) surfaced. No other manufacturer or supplier of a GT14B-4 claims 210CCA, all claim 135CCA.


You know us guys, we wanted to know if the OEM battery has magically managed to get more deep cranking power in the same physical size. So one of the guys figured he'd ask GS but they don't seem to have responded. I sentan email to their sales dept 2-11-09 asking for the 'tested CCA rating for the GS GT14B-4 that is supplied for the Yamaha Road Star Warrior' and also asking if the GSGT14B-4 they supply today has the same CCA rating as the GS GT14B-4 battery that was supplied with 2003+ model year Warriors, or if the CCA has improved even though battery dimensions remain the same. No answer yet, and candidly I don't expect one because if they knew the answer, they would have emailed back by now.


Some very knowledgable members have reported their OEM battery could not crank their HC engines, so they went 200CCA. If the Warrior OEM battery was already 210CCA then going to a 2010CCA aftermarket battery wouldn't make much difference.


Considering all these factors coming in from some s-a-v-v-y guys, its seems likely the GS data chart is incorrect, just a typo. I know how that feels! And with the cost of the OEM battery being higher and the model number probably being 135CCA,and the SVR-14 being200CCA and costing less (but a tight fit) I figured it might be smart to see about sorting it out before my 2003 battery needs to be replaced. Mine still cranks okay but - at its age - its likely the days are numbered.


OEM GS GT14B-4 = either (135CCA or 210CCA?) = $102 plus freight (as of today): http://www.staryamaha.com/fiche_section_detail.asp


SVR-14 (verified 210CCA and a hair bigger) = $95 plus freight: http://www.apexbattery.com/svr-svr14-motorcycle-battery-12v-14ah--motorcycle-batteries-svr-motorcycle-batteries.html


If the OEM is truly 210CCA I'd buy it because it fits the space without mods and has given me good service (102ci stock motor).


If the OEM is 135CCA I'd buy the SVR-14 and heat the bump in the battery box and slide it in. More winter power is always good.


NJWarrior said:
I found this on the GS Yuasa website;


http://www.gs-yuasa.com/gyin/en/products/pdf/GS.pdf


See page 3, It lists the GT14B-4 as having a cca of 210
 

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Let's also not rule out the possibiltyof difference in batteries based on manufacture date alone. Just as an example, there are a bunch of people that have 02 RSWs and have had the same issue I have where sometimes the clock and tripmeters reset (regardless of waiting before cranking). To rule out the battery I tried a powersupply I use for my electronics hobby and gave the RSW as much juice as it needed and magically it started on the first pump and the time\trip meters were happy.

I'm willing to be dollars to doughnuts that there is something similar in all of these batteries and something different in manufacturing dates. I'm for sure going to get an SVR-14 as soon as I find a supplier (I haven't looked yet)
 

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blackhatrob said:
I'm for sure going to get an SVR-14 as soon as I find a supplier (I haven't looked yet)




which brings us nicely back to ....will it fit without some major bodging the box!?...so the more boxes measured the better....good posting guys
 

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From what I've seen from posts from other members of this forum... people have been able to wedge it in there using things like axle grease or filling a bag full of hot water to soften the plastic.

I'm going to go to my local battery depot and see what I can find that may fit a little easier than the SVR-14 but still give ~200 CCA
 
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