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Additional information for conversations with Barnett:

Gold springs, 501-75-06005, 75# at 1-inch, MT-05.
Green springs, 501-82-06023, 82# at 1-inch, MT-23.
Red springs, 501-99-06091, 99# at 1-inch, MT91.

Note: example ordering, MT91-06 is a pack of 6.

The current Barnett catalog, on page 125, appears to still show the SR2 in a photograph with an un-shielded bearing which makes good sense for this application. I will clarify if the SR2 has been reengineered for a shielded bearing or if a potential exists that some SR2 units were unintentionally fitted with shielded bearings.

I will revisit all of this information received from Barnett over the years.
 

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Discussion Starter #22
I confirm, the message on this resource, addressed to me, completely copies the text that I received in the mail in response to an appeal through the barnett site.

I thank this resource and its long-standing and reputable users for support. The situation is not critical financially, but extremely unpleasant both logically and reputationally.

I do not even want to think what could have happened if the ball from the collapsed bearing had fallen into the teeth of the gears of the primary gear :(

To the representative of Barnett:
The fact that the manufacturer is free to make changes to the constructive in his own way and without notifying consumers, I am aware. Legally, everything is clean. BUT. If you make significant changes that make your optional accessories incompatible, you should mention this. Write this with a HUGE RED TEXT. And then your conscience is clear. The user himself, at his own discretion and responsibility, will make a choice: to buy a new generation product and use it within the described framework and with acceptable additions or to look for an old product to use it with supplements that are not compatible with new product. It will be honest.

My list of claims to your products:
1. The first clutch cable failed, running about 16 thousand kilometers, worked in tandem with your plate and gold springs. The cable itself is intact, it has broken the lug. The lug was broken on two pieces.
2. The second clutch cable failed, running about 10 thousand kilometers, worked in tandem with your plate and green springs. The cable itself is intact, this time it vomited out of the lug.
3. The release bearing of your plate failed, mileage 2500km, worked in tandem with red springs.

This is my personal list of breakdowns. Another friend of mine also tore the bearing and tore the clutch cable out of the lug. I will try to clarify the design features of the bearing cage. From what I know for sure, the mileage is about 2000 km, a plate with gold springs.

About the problems of cables I wrote to you in feedback, and you tried to put the question on the brakes. I solved my problem promptly, but my friend got two problems with your product by my recommendation of your product and I do not like it. But more I don’t like your user interaction mechanism when problems arise.

And another one of my good friends left a review in my blog, where I described the problem of a torn bearing, that he knew this and he met it more than once. But his experience concerns the 19th motor (stratoliner and raider) and there, with variations of the springs in the package everything is simpler, there in the set are two sets of springs.

Today in our country I use your product most intensively and earlier I gave recommendations to choose your product. My practical experience was based on a thorough study of information from the practice of users here on this resource, since nowhere in the world is there anything similar even to a small extent. And many users of this bike in our country are guided by my reviews, my blogs. The logic is simple, clear and transparent. I read RSW, buy, use and then share my experience. If someone cannot read English (and we have the majority of such users) or do not want to do this, many people do not know how to use search, it is easier for them to follow my blog in their native language. So, today your reputation suffers and suffers losses. But that is not all. In our country, there is offers of substitutes for your product, specifically your plate. This solution is clearly copied from your product, but sold under a different brand, with a different price, and you don’t even know about it. Early I have already spoken many times in favor of choosing your product against a copy. But you force me to turn away from you. Let it be so.
 

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Well...... my minds made up.... new YAMAHA spring clutch with YAMAHA clutch plates ... good for another 50,000 miles.
 

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I did a site search and found multiple post referring to phone calls and conversations with barnett about red spring use and not one said anything about not using them due to damage or warranty. Every conversation just stated being told it's a stiff pull and might not be preferred for daily riding.

I just found my invoice from when I bought the plate and red springs. Been installed since the summer of 2012 no failure, issues, or snapped cables.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
 

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My reading last night showed the red springs still ship with kits for MT01 and a few HD models, including the smaller 45ci model, and a few others.

Snapped cables are often the result of the ball ends not being able to rotate (lube or scuffing) and/or incorrect alignment angles (too sharp of an angle at the handlebar end or the motor case end). In this case it does not appear at this time to be pilot error so I will ask while talking with Barnett. When the end attachments come loose it seems to me its most often factory error, but not always.

I will ask about sealed bearings in this application and why their catalog images still show open bearings. Which I think is proven to be correct in this application.

I will hopefully get through to Engineering as I have in the past. Then will also ask who Mike39 might be so I can say hello and get updated on his side too.

Let's not finger-point. Let's get facts so we can move forward in the direction needed.
 

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Spring Rate lb/in (Pound per Inch) 101

My $0.02 once again for those following this thread and want to understand the mechanics of the assembly :)

It's my expectation that you all realize that the (6) Compression Springs, supplied with the Barnett clutch kit, do not travel 1.00" Real World so the Applied Forces disclosed above to the TOB (Throw-out Bearing) aren't at all correct! The chosen Ball Bearing for this application needs to withstand both Radial and also High Axial/Thrust Forces when relaxing the clutch plates hence the reason for using an open bearing design.
The spring coils would contact each other and bottom out before ever achieving 1.00" travel.
FYI, As the rate increases for the gold, green and red springs so does the outside diameter of the spring wire also contributing to less total travel.
Compression Spring Forces are Linear so at 0.500" travel the Force is Half and at 0.250" it's Quarter, etcetera!

The initial assembly of the Barnett pressure plate with (6) springs & heavy flat washers creates the Pre-Load to the clutch pack.
It's been nearly 12 years since my SR-2 install so I can only speculate from memory that the initial spring preload using the M6 screws was approximately 0.250-0.375" and that the total spring travel is less than 0.4375"

Perhaps one of the members here can disclose the Initial Pre-load ;)
 

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Discussion Starter #27
The chosen Ball Bearing for this application needs to withstand both Radial and also High Axial/Thrust Forces when relaxing the clutch plates hence the reason for using an open bearing design.
YES! That is why I immediately expressed doubts about the correctness of the choice of the material of the separator and indicated that, most likely, even if I would use of gold springs, I would have broken this kind of bearing :confused:

But now it is important to understand how the manufacturer will justify its mistake. First there was a version that plastic is not used anywhere, after was version about the wrong configuration of additional products that they sell, and there are no recommendations or recipes, but user lost warranty. Let's see what happens next ... :rolleyes:
 

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YES! That is why I immediately expressed doubts about the correctness of the choice of the material of the separator and indicated that, most likely, even if I would use of gold springs, I would have broken this kind of bearing :confused:

But now it is important to understand how the manufacturer will justify its mistake. First there was a version that plastic is not used anywhere, after was version about the wrong configuration of additional products that they sell, and there are no recommendations or recipes, but user lost warranty. Let's see what happens next ... :rolleyes:
freeezzzz It's unclear to me if the failed TOB used a composite or non-ferrous cage/retainer for the balls and whether it was a sealed bearing as disclosed by the Barnett Representative.

FWIW, I've mentored several forum members over the years that have secured their failed TOB from a Bearing Supply House as a sealed bearing.
In each case I've instructed those members to remove the attached (2) bearing seals so that the bearing remained open to the engine oil! What color springs they had in their assembly I'm clueless.

As stated earlier in my OP, I'm saddened to read of your issues with Barnett.
 

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Thank you Alan, it's correct to keep that in mind and I should have clarified instead of simply supplying spec.
My contribution on this subject is to those members following this thread and to the Barnett Representative.

It was NOT directed to your Posts on this subject Mike.

My $0.02 again:
IMHO I suggest that each concerned member contact Barnett directly as to their own concerns so that Barnett is impacted by numbers and not a single individual!
 

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FWIW, I've mentored several forum members over the years that have secured their failed TOB from a Bearing Supply House as a sealed bearing.
In each case I've instructed those members to remove the attached (2) bearing seals so that the bearing remained open to the engine oil! What color springs they had in their assembly I'm clueless.
I'm one of those you mentored. Thank you Alan!
I still have the fragged bearing that came out of the pressure plate. The bearing that came out of the PP wouldn't spin by hand. In this instance, the bike uses the Barnett-supplied [mild] springs that come by default in the kit.

When I was doing a fresh pressure plate install on another Warrior, the first thing I did after removing the pressure plate from the packaging was to press out the supplied bearing and install a new OEM Yamaha (Koyo, IIRC) bearing.
 

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Discussion Starter #34
I add information.

I am very sorry that I threw away a part of the destroyed parts. This refers to the balls and pieces of the separator. But I saved the cages.





By them it is clear that the barnett in the current version of the product sets the bearing 7003B. Its marking remains behind the collar of the pressure plate and reading it is impossible without a recess from the plate. In my search query, I received many images of this bearing, or very similar bearing. Also with a red polymer separator. Many links led to Ali))))



If you pay attention to the surface, the groove for the balls is also damaged, which means that the bearing was influenced by a serious load, and this also tells me personally that the quality and hardness of alloy of a cages is quite low.

The search also indicated that such bearings have a PCB-material of separator. This is a kind of plastic, as stated by our suppliers(barnett told that they don't use plastic))). They also indicate that in the modern world this material is being supplanted by the PEEK, since it has ceased to correspond to modern realities.

Our supplier writes:
PCB separators (lightweight, fabric-reinforced phenol-formaldehyde plastic separators) are able to withstand high centrifugal loads and accelerations, but cannot operate at high temperatures.

Heating phenol formaldehyde leads to the formation of volatile toxic compounds. In addition, the material is fragile and unstable to strong shock loads. Previously, these separators were used in standard precision angular contact ball bearings. However, such a construction is becoming increasingly rare, gradually replaced by PEEK.
These are the thoughts. In any case, situation verified that the bearing chosen by the barnett is clearly less durable than in the previous version of the plate.

Regarding the replacement in the form of Koyo. Revolutions in the primary gear different to crankshaf almost twice(lower). My calculator give a range of 580-3400 revolutions per minute on the clutch hub. For this bearing is a normal load. I only worry about its function of pulling its inner cage. To gather more information, I will try to find the markings on the factory pressure plates.

And another thing that I found:
https://www.amazon.com/Bearing-Angular-17x35x10-Bearings-VXB/dp/B002UEFJ1Y
This bearing looks much more trusted :rolleyes:
 

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I emailed and got a response today. Here us what was said.



Brian,

Hello, my name is Mike Taylor. My wife and I are the owners of the company. She is Charlie and Afton’s daughter. I have worked her since 1968 and Colleen has worked for the company for more years than me. Motorcycling is not only our business, it’s our passion, too. We take great pride in servicing the motorcycle community for 71+ years, now. I will give you little background on the Spring conversion in question, #511-90-10002. (SR-2)

We first introduced this part in 2002. The first ones we made were exactly to stock specifications, we did not list an alternative, heavier spring pack for them, just the ones that were included in the skin packed package. A few months after they hit the market, we were contacted by a gentleman who said he had a way to improve them. Because our part was made of a stronger billet material, he could machine the teeth on the pressure plate deeper and this would allow the clutch pack to wear more before the pressure plate bottomed out on the center hub. He had done this on one of our parts and it worked great. We did the same procedure on a part, tested it to make sure all was correct and incorporated that design into the next and subsequent production runs. We shared this new design feature with customers and, of course, some people who purchased the earlier parts thought they were machined incorrectly. They were not of course. They were exactly to stock specs, but we told customers that we would machine them deeper, if they returned them to us, no charge. In hind sight,
we should have just incorporated the improvement into the part and let it go at that. No good deed goes...etc.

Now about two years ago, we did indeed screw up big time. We made a run of these that were in fact, machined wrong. We caught it early and most of the defective parts were recalled from our distributors, Parts Unlimited, Tucker, a couple of smaller ones. Unfortunately, some of them were sold before we got the recall out. We have replaced them without question when they have been reported to us. In seventeen years of making this part, this was the first time we were at fault. I apologize to you and all of your followers for any inconvenience we may have caused.

Now, the springs. The standard spring that comes packaged in the kit is the same one we have always used from day one. As the years went by and the Warrior was introduced, more and more engine upgrades were becoming popular. We then offered the #501-82-06023 (green) spring set as an alternative for more pressure. It is listed on our website, in our catalog and in the bill of materials that is included with the part. The bearings have side load ratings that allow a maximum amount of pressure. No where have we ever listed the #501-99-06091 (red), spring for use with any of our Yamaha pressure plates. I have had inquiries about using stiffer springs and I don’t recommend them because of possible bearing failure. We have no control over what people will try or use, we can only give advice. I know there are all kinds of forums that say do this or that on just about any subject. The forums provide a great service by putting information out there, but we also know that not all of that information is necessarily accurate.

Finally, we gets lots of orders everyday. From the web site, dealers and distributors. Most of them are for multiple products. We can tell what a lot of the parts are for by their part number, but many of our parts have multiple applications. We list over 200 different spring sets and many of them will fit different year and model bikes. Same goes for friction and steel plates. Many of our customers own or work on more than one bike, ATV, etc. On web orders, the customer can include his make and model and ask if the parts are suitable.

Unlike a lot of companies, we actually do our best to give good customer service. We answer emails promptly, answer the phone with real, live people and return phones calls if we’re not in. Far from perfect but we strive for excellence.

I am in the office most days from about 9-4 PST. My extension is 103 if you call after hours. Trying to back down a little after 51 years on the job. Still enjoy the job and love the industry.
Please call or contact me if I can be of any further help.

Mike
[email protected]





Celebrating our 71st Year of Producing the Finest American Made Clutches and Cables!

Barnett Tool & Engineering
2238 Palma Dr.
Ventura, Ca 93003
Phone- (805) 642-9435
Fax- (805) 642-9436

Mon-Thurs 8 am-4 pm (PDT)
www.barnettclutches.com
 

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Barnett Clutch Spring Conv's SR-2 Rev A - UPDATED

Not to hijack the OP but Here's an early post by this writer with Mike Taylor of Barnett regarding the pressure plate machining back in Dec 2007 performed by Oliver aka Frankenstein :)
______________________________
CPS Recall & Barnett Clutch Spring Conversion SR-2 Rev A with Std Gold Springs & M6 x Gr 10.9 zinc plated screws.

Photos of install here with notes: CPS Recall & Barnett SR-2 Pressure Plate | Flickr

Rev A Groove for basket machined to 6.6mm (0.260") or an additional 0.75mm (0.030")



Copy of e-mail correspondence to Barnett in descending order

----- Original Message -----
From: Alan
To: Mike Taylor
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 7:15 PM
Subject: Re: SR-2 Specs, Re. your email of 11/27/2007

Mike,
You exceeded my expectations in every which way.....Thank you very much. Part received today!

Regards
Alan

----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Taylor
To: Alan
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 4:17 PM
Subject: Re: SR-2 Specs, Re. your email of 11/27/2007

Alan, just send it back with a copy of this email and we'll take care of it promptly. Address below is correct. Mike Taylor

----- Original Message -----
From: Alan
To: Mike Taylor
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 3:05 PM
Subject: Re: SR-2 Specs, Re. your email of 11/27/2007

Mike,
Thank you very much for your quick response and very detailed explanation of the SR-2 clutch spring conversion kit.

I appreciate the time you've taken to explain the senario that exists with the Roadstar Warrior.

As stated in my earlier e-mail the package i received from Jireh Cycles is date stamped 04/17/07 before the new program!

What procedure is required to return the part for re-machining? ...... RGA No? ....Just mail back the new pressure plate only with this correspondence? Anyones attention? To 2238 Palma Dr Ventura, CA 93003

Respectfully

----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Taylor
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 12:02 PM
Subject: SR-2 Specs, Re. your email of 11/27/2007

Allen,

First of all, I want to set the record straight on our original #SR-2 pressure plate conversion.

There was no flaw in the design or production of the original #SR-2 pressure plate. It was made to the exact same measurements as the OEM Yamaha pressure plate. The machined depth, where it fits down over the hub is approximately 5.8mm on the stock pressure plate as well as our original version of the #SR-2.

As a result of Oliver's post dated in April of this year, we saw a way to eliminate the need to remove and machine the hub, thus getting a bit more life out of the clutch plates. Starting on April 18, 2007, we re-worked the CNC program to deepen this area an extra 0.75mm. This accomplished the same effect as machining the hub, saving you, the consumer, the time and cost of that extra work. This was done without altering the structural integrity of the part.

By doing this, it is perceived that there was a design problem with the part to start with. If you will simply compare our original part with the OEM part, you will see they were same. No good deed goes un-punished.

Any SR-2 that was packaged on 4/18/07 or later is of the new design. The new depth is 6.6mm. If you or any user of this part has an early style part, you can return it to us and we will re-machine it to current specs.

A not of caution....as the clutch pack wears down less than factory specs, the pre-load on the clutch springs will decrease.
This applies to any of the three types of springs being used with the #SR-2. Also, the green and red springs are much stronger than the stock single spring, so always do a thorough visual inspection for wear and stress damage when servicing the clutch.

Feel free to share this with fellow Yamaha riders, websites or chat rooms.

Mike Taylor
Barnett Tool & Eng.

----- Original Message -----
From: Alan
To: [email protected]
Cc: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 4:51 PM
Subject: SR-2 Clutch Spring Conversion for '04' Yamaha Warrior

Attn: Technical Support

Yesterday, Monday, i spoke to Pat regarding an issue with the Barnett SR-2 kit dated 04/17/07 that i purchased from Jireh Cycles last week in good faith.

Pat of Barnett, assured me that this kit had addressed the issue in the following attachment from the RSWarrior.com forum yet this correspondence contradicts my phone conversation with him:

https://rswarrior.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=53592
barnett spring plate "UPDATE" by dendelion
Posted - 06/04/2007 : 3:17:19 PM
After reading Oliver's post and already having my SR-2 ready for install, I thought I would call Barnett and see what they had to say.
Xavier at Barnett tech support asked me to send him Oliver's post. That was done and I guess they agreed with Oliver's findings because he told me they are making a revision to the SR-2 and it will be ready for delivery within the next few days. I told him to contact Phats to make sure he gets the "New Rev" to any Warrior customer that may want to do this Mod. According to Xavier, this new rev will end the need to have the Clutch Boss machined. If you order the SR-2 make sure you check to see that the REV date is 6/xx/07 or later.
Hope this helps. Thanks Oliver!!

It appears that i have received an earlier kit that will create a premature slipping problem and was mis-informed by Pat that it was ok!

Please advise what course of action i can take to receive the proper part so that i will do the job but once!

Respectfully,
Alan
 

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Discussion Starter #39
I doubt that the representative of barnett will write to me)))

And yet, I doubt that Barnett will reveal who bearing production wich he puts the bearings in his plates.

We heard arguments about spring loads, they are public and have long been familiar to everyone. But here on the bearing is still information exactly zero.

I found the static load data from the bearing manufacturer. Dynamic load is calculated based on the characteristics of the application, loading mechanism. This is a complex process, and I am not an engineer. But I can get the relative numbers. There are numbers for different stiffness of the springs used and there are run values. And what is - quite an argument. There are no others anyway.

What we get. I rided with a plate of a barnett with a bearing very similar to the one installed in the factory pressure plate, more than 70 thousand kilometers.

Barnett's plate after 35000km with gold springs:


Look at the bearing. Same form.

The stock yamaha plate with same looking bearing after 41000km. Who has puted out this bearing told me that it has koyo 6003 mark.



Half of this distance(70.000km) with gold springs and half with green. The bearing is radial with steel cage on the rivets. Same in the factory plate. This is a 6003 open modification. Open or closed modification - affects only the maximum speed of rotation. In the series with compaction, it is limited to 12,000 revolutions per minute. Meanwhile, when taking into account the factory ECU cut-off speed, the hub of the clutch rotates no more than 3,500 revolutions per minute.
Consequently, the load of the gold and green springs of the radial open-type bearing 6003 in 450 and 492 it maintained perfectly for a long time and did not cause any questions.
After this barnett replaced the bearing on the angular contact open type unknown manufacturer. I compared the static loads that I stated for the bearings manufacturer Koyo and the differences are: 6003 - 3.25 and 7003FY - 4.45. There is a difference, but between an open radial bearing and a radial thrust bearing with a Koyo brass cage. And what delivers barnett is still a question.

Even if we take into account that the load with red springs has increased by 600/492 = 23% compared to green springs, we would have expected a decrease in the service life of the bearing by a quarter. About. No! Lets get more impressive, let it be four times less!)) But instead it turns out 70000km (at 6003 with gold and green springs) / 2500km (at 7003 with red) = 28. Almost thirty times less durable and reliable bearing!

In the current situation, everyone who bought a plate of barnett on my recommendation is already ordered or ordering a replacement bearing. The rest refused to buy a barnett.

I think barnett will not indicate the bearing manufacturer. The images that I made public show that the bearing is not labeled, which is typical of low-quality products from China. And, of course, in such a case it is impossible to talk about statements by the manufacturer of bearings about ultimate loads. Who and how made this bearing, with what tolerances and guarantees, in what it will pour out over time and what will lead, no one will say.
 

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freeezzzz … I expect that you know that the Angular Contact Single Row bearing used for the Barnett pressure plate, throw out bearing, is position sensitive and must be installed properly to act as a Thrust Bearing for the Warrior application. I believe the number side goes down into the bore but viewing the bearing you can see the difference by observing the inner and outer races.

If you want to calculate the actual approximate thrust forces then I would suggest you measure the spring free length and also the collapsed preloaded length (spring pocket depth) and do some simple calculations.

As I stated earlier the spring isn't preloaded 1.00" based on my memory of the install back in 2007.

Using One Foot engineering I would estimate that a quality angular contact bearing is capable to handle at least 50% of the rated Static and Dynamic Loads for the Warrior axial forces.
Using your VBX Amazon bearing respectively:
3800 newtons = 854 * .5 = 427 Pound Force
6400 newtons = 1439 * .5 = 720 Pound Force
 
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