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Discussion Starter #1
Is there a way to figure how much frame rake it will take to drop the front of the warrior 1.5" - 2". I put on 7* trees a while back with 2" fork tube extensions. I love the way it looks now but wouldn't mind a little more rake. Plus when I went to a 21" wheel it slightly lifted the front of the bike. You cant hardly tell but it bugs me a little. I am assuming after rakeing the frame I will still be able to use the raked trees and stock fork tubes. Can anyone tell me if there is a way to figure the drop. Thanks alot.
 

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Re: Frame rake question.....

If you were to rake the frame to 45 deg + 6 deg trees, you'd need to extend the forks at least 5 inches. Mine is like this but only extended 4 inches. I set it at this height to mach the height of the rear AFTER a flipNgrind lowering. The result was a bike that looks really low and cool looking, but has a problem scraping >the frame< if I leave the back lowered. So I raised it back up in the rear. Now the rear sets about 1/2" higher then the front - not a recommended stance. I plan on either extending the front another inch or two, changing to a 21" tire, or installing a tricky air.


I don't know of any economical ways to extend your stock tubes that far (although TTBone did). I ended up buying a new front end and adapting everything to fit. The new front end was around $2000. It needed custom spacers for the neck and wheel...
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Re: Frame rake question.....

I really don't want to get new tubes. I just want to push the wheel out enough to drop the front a couple of inches. I figure a frame rake is the only way to do it. I just won't be able to rake it as much as yours without getting longer forks. I saw a warrior a while back that had a frame rake and 6* trees with the stock forks and a 21" wheel. It looked really good but was quite low in the front because he didn't have 2" tube extensions. I know there has got to be a way to figure out how much it will take. If I took the tube extensions off mine it would set better but I am afraid my front fender would hit the bottom tree. Plusmy tire wouldn't sit out as far.
 

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Re: Frame rake question.....

Well, just raking the frame at all is rather daunting. I had to strip my bike completely down and ship the frame off. The rake + shipping (2 years ago) was around $1100. THEN you get to repaint/powdercoat the frame and put it all back together. If you want the swingarm to match - then that needs to be repainted/coated. It's kind of a domino effect at some point - one thing leads to another.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Re: Frame rake question.....

I know what you mean by domino effect. I am quite worried about being able to mount the speedo in the stock location after the rake. Also if the handle bars will still work. The only thing that scares me about tearing it down to the frame is the electrical system. That part just seems really daunting. I'm sure if I would take pics and mark locations I would be ok though. I thought about selling the trees and extensions and buy a 18* kit from chopper kit usa. But I read it is 4k by the time it is all done. If I can get the frame raked and powdercoated for less than 2k it seems like the way to go. I emailed Blue Steel customs about doing it and also a local guy but haven't heard back since it is the weekend. If that doesn't pan out I may contact BMS. I just hate to pay shipping for that far.
 

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Re: Frame rake question.....

Remounting the speedo (w/custom bracket if needed) isn't too tough. The electrical isn't too bad either. Most things only plug back in one way. I took pictures of every step of my teardown (especially wiring) - and never needed to refer back to them. The ONE thing I didn't take pictures of (the rubber bumpers in the rear rim) I didn't have! Heh heh - I just had to ask on the board and got a speedy answer. Anyway, I wouldn't worry too much about the wiring - you can simply label anything that isn't blatantly obvious where it goes... I think the trickiest part is where part of the harness runs down the center frame tube. There's a certain order things have to go back together to get it reinstalled the way it came out. You just have to pay attention when taking it apart. I think 2k is attainable for the rake and powdercoat - even WITH shipping to BMS (unless their prices have increased a lot - I payed $850). BMS has the most experience with this and Sam knows what he's doing - I'd highly recommend them.


On a side note, if you are doing this mostly by yourself, I found it easiest to leave the x-fer case attached, drag the frame/motor off the jack and onto a piece of plywood with a blanket on it, set the frame/motor on its side, and pull the frame off the motor. You can then set the motor back upright. Reverse order to reinstall. It's really not too tough. I think I grabbed my wife to help when I put the frame/motor back on the jackstand (I didn't want to scratch anything).



here it sat until the frame was ready to go back on...


...and right after setting it back on the lift...

...ready to go back together.
 

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Re: Frame rake question.....

Keeping in mind your configuration might bring the front down 1-1/2" with just a 3/4" tube slide (round numbers):


Forks - Lowering: http://rswarrior.com/forums/t/49005.aspx(from the Popular Mods post)


It may be necessary to stiffen the front fork springs but I'd bet you've already done that.


baclay9 said:
Is there a way to figure how much frame rake it will take to drop the front of the warrior 1.5" - 2". I put on 7* trees a while back with 2" fork tube extensions. I love the way it looks now but wouldn't mind a little more rake. Plus when I went to a 21" wheel it slightly lifted the front of the bike. You cant hardly tell but it bugs me a little. I am assuming after rakeing the frame I will still be able to use the raked trees and stock fork tubes. Can anyone tell me if there is a way to figure the drop. Thanks alot.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Re: Frame rake question.....

Arizona Warrior said:
Keeping in mind your configuration might bring the front down 1-1/2" with just a 3/4" tube slide (round numbers):


Forks - Lowering: http://rswarrior.com/forums/t/49005.aspx(from the Popular Mods post)


It may be necessary to stiffen the front fork springs but I'd bet you've already done that.


baclay9 said:
Is there a way to figure how much frame rake it will take to drop the front of the warrior 1.5" - 2". I put on 7* trees a while back with 2" fork tube extensions. I love the way it looks now but wouldn't mind a little more rake. Plus when I went to a 21" wheel it slightly lifted the front of the bike. You cant hardly tell but it bugs me a little. I am assuming after rakeing the frame I will still be able to use the raked trees and stock fork tubes. Can anyone tell me if there is a way to figure the drop. Thanks alot.

I thought about this but I don't want the tree any closer to the fender. This is something I am going to have to think about for a while. I am trying to decide between this and paint. I am leaning toward the rake. I am not going to do it till next winter though. I am bound and determined to go at least one year without tearing my bike apart.LOL. Thank you for the help and advise.
 

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Re: Frame rake question.....

Arizona Warrior said:
Keeping in mind your configuration might bring the front down 1-1/2" with just a 3/4" tube slide (round numbers):


Forks - Lowering: http://rswarrior.com/forums/t/49005.aspx(from the Popular Mods post)


It may be necessary to stiffen the front fork springs but I'd bet you've already done that.


baclay9 said:
Is there a way to figure how much frame rake it will take to drop the front of the warrior 1.5" - 2". I put on 7* trees a while back with 2" fork tube extensions. I love the way it looks now but wouldn't mind a little more rake. Plus when I went to a 21" wheel it slightly lifted the front of the bike. You cant hardly tell but it bugs me a little. I am assuming after rakeing the frame I will still be able to use the raked trees and stock fork tubes. Can anyone tell me if there is a way to figure the drop. Thanks alot.
Lowering the front with the 7 deg raked trees,by slipping the forks,will have less effect then the stock arrangement.


As the steering neck & tree angle increases so does the hypotenuse of the right angle so 3/4" forktube slide won't even yield a 5/8" change in height
.... dropping the fork tubes within the triple trees will always be less than a 1:1 ratio and is a specific trigonometric function.



Here's a link to an interactive rake & trail calculator from Perse Performancethat might be of interest even though it's HD oriented: http://perseperformance.com/main-1024.html


The stock Warrior caster(neck rake) & trail is 29.25-29.5 deg & 5.12" respectively, depending upon your resource as the factory & owner's manual defer by 1/4 deg. Thefork tubes are offset in the stock trees approx 1-3/8" positivewhich isn't considered in the Perse calculatorl!
Edited:http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/rakeandtrail.html


I suspect that inorder to achieve your goal of 1.5" - 2.0" drop usingyour current mod partswill require a 6 - 10 deg change in the neck with a lot less trail thatmay be detrimentalathigh speed.


Here'sa couple of searches on the subject:


http://rswarrior.com/search/SearchResults.aspx?q=%22caster+angle%22&o=Relevance


http://rswarrior.com/search/SearchResults.aspx?q=%22rake+angle%22&o=Relevance
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Re: Frame rake question.....

Alan - "I suspect that inorder to achieve your goal of 1.5" - 2.0" drop usingyour current mod partswill require a 6 - 10 deg change in the neck with a lot less trail thatmay be detrimentalathigh speed."


I was thinking something along the same lines. I was figuring 10 deg just as a guess. That would be 46 deg of total rake. This should give me the look I want and I figured since Matt added 4" to his fork tube length and I believe he has 51 deg of total rake, I would be ok with just the 2" longer tubes. I will know for sure soon. I emailed four different places telling them what I wanted. Hopefully I will hear back from them this week. There is a place about 30 min. from me that does it called R & B Custom Cycles. I am hopeing they have good pricing. I have seen a warrior they did and it looked pretty good. It had 12 degrees of frame rake and 6 deg trees. It jut had the stock forks on it with no extensions and a 21" front wheel. I liked it but the tire was too close to the trees without the tube extensions.


If I ever get off of this job I am going to do some measurements and calculate my rake and trail now vs. when I rake the frame "x" amountWhat are acceptable rake and trail numbers so I know.
 

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Re: Frame rake question.....

As far as rake and trail for the Warrior - mine at 51 degrees (45 frame and 6 neck - you were right!) really works well. If you lived closer - you could take mine for a test ride. I think you'd find it handles surprisingly well - especially the faster you go. The main thing I've had to get used to is low speed turns. It feels like the bike is ready to fall over sometimes. I learned to simply accelerate slightly when taking off while turning.


I'm thinking that in your case, if you went with 46 deg total - you'd still want a 4"extension with the stock wheel. A 21" wheel would make a noticable difference though and who knows - 2" to 3" might work...
 

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Re: Frame rake question.....

heres the best way, lock the bike n a bike lift so its plumb and stable. ( clamp the rear wheel) take an adjustable (threaded jack) and place it under the cross bar on the down tubes.( where the ignition is mounted) and support the bike. now take a sawz all with an aggressive blade and slice the neck from underneath just behind the lower triple bearing. cut up almost to the top of the frame, but not completely through. dont go too far. u want the top of the frame( just in front of the tank) to hold the frame from completely separating . now slowly lower the jack, the frame will start to separate from the bottom.lower the jack untill u achieve the stance ur lookin for. now cut two straps of aluminum and place on either side of the frame and attach so the frame cant move in or out. now gently disassemble the front end, cut pieces of aluminum plate that fit the sides of the frame and tack them n place. completely disassemble the motorcycle ( yes motor out) finish welding,or find someone who can. dress the welds powdercoat and reassemble. now if u really want the bike to be perfect, prior to all this i disassembled the front end,made a jig to hold the bike from moving and sent a straight piece of stock through the steering head bearings. send it all the way down till it touches the lift, now make a mark on a piece of tape. then take a plumb bob, tie it to the rod just below the lower triple. let it settle, make another mark. reassemble the front end being carefull not to disturb the motorcycle. now cut the frame as stated above. after u make the cut take the front end back off, reinstall the rod assembly and make sure it follows the line you created before.this will insure the frame stays as true as it were when it was new. this is how i did mine. it came out perfect. if your gonna rake it out its necessary to use a 21" front wheel as it will never look right without it. i would post pics just dont know how.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Re: Frame rake question.....

Matt, the reason I know what yours is, is I have been studying your bike build pics like a madman. LOL. After seeing that someone else has done this it gives me the inspiration to think I could take it down to the frame myself. I may be bugging you as this thing progresses, I hope you don't mind.
Like I said I am going to leave it alone for now and enjoy the bike for the summer. But come next fall, it is going to be on!


Sticky, While there is no possible way I will do this myself, I give you major props for doing it yourself. I would love to see pics of what you did. You can either just put the pics in your gallery, or you have to host them on photobucket or something similiar to show them in a thread.
 

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Re: Frame rake question.....

baclay9 said:
Matt, the reason I know what yours is, is I have been studying your bike build pics like a madman. LOL. After seeing that someone else has done this it gives me the inspiration to think I could take it down to the frame myself. I may be bugging you as this thing progresses, I hope you don't mind.
Like I said I am going to leave it alone for now and enjoy the bike for the summer. But come next fall, it is going to be on!


Sticky, While there is no possible way I will do this myself, I give you major props for doing it yourself. I would love to see pics of what you did. You can either just put the pics in your gallery, or you have to host them on photobucket or something similiar to show them in a thread.

Nope - you wouldn't be bugging me - whatever I can do to help - just ask. Others that have picked my brain haven't gone through with it though - you'd be the first! I agree it's a scary thing to do. You just have to have the nerve (time and $$ too) to follow through.


I'd be curious to see Stickys as well. What he said about leaving the very top of the cut intact is true - this appears to be similar to what BMS did on mine. I've got some pretty heavy duty plates welded into the neck too. I don't see it coming apart anytime soon.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Re: Frame rake question.....

If BMS and the others say I will be okay the way I want to run it I am definatly going to go for it. I have already made my mind up. I have been saving up for paint but I think I would rather do this first. The only way I will not go through with this is if I "must" get new fork tubes. I just dont want to do that. That is 2k too much for me. At least that is my story for now.
One other thing I am curious about that I just thought of is if my headlight will have enough down adjustment to hit the road after raking the frame? I know you had to go aftermarket but I am trying to avoid that. I actually really like the stock setup. I just have to make sure I have all my ducks in a row. The little things you always tend to forget add up quickly.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Re: Frame rake question.....

Here is a pic of my bike frome the side so everyone can see what I am talking about. Here it has th 7 deg trees, fork tube extensions, and the 21". Bear in mind when I am sitting on the bike the bottom of the rear fender sits even with the ridge on the tire where the tread and side wall meet. This is where I want the front of the bike to sit even with. I have a little more weight to loose and I am going to get adjustable links so it will sit here while parked. Anyway



By claypool782, shot with DSC-T300 at 2008-08-28


Please ignore the dead guy.
 

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Re: Frame rake question.....

baclay9 said:
If BMS and the others say I will be okay the way I want to run it I am definatly going to go for it. I have already made my mind up. I have been saving up for paint but I think I would rather do this first. The only way I will not go through with this is if I "must" get new fork tubes. I just dont want to do that. That is 2k too much for me. At least that is my story for now.
One other thing I am curious about that I just thought of is if my headlight will have enough down adjustment to hit the road after raking the frame? I know you had to go aftermarket but I am trying to avoid that. I actually really like the stock setup. I just have to make sure I have all my ducks in a row. The little things you always tend to forget add up quickly.

Yeah, headlight angle, speedo clearance, handlebar clearance - all major considerations - and all things I had to compensate for. Also consider - if you replace the headlight, there's a bunch of wiring to move not to mention finding a new home for your tach.


Dominos...


 

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Re: Frame rake question.....

the problem with just adding offset triples is it completely throws out the proper geometry. making the front wheel wanting to flop over while turning. it just makes the motorcycle difficult to ride and takes away the enjoyment and safety built into the bike. if your gonna doit , doit right. you will regret the way the bike performs.
 

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Re: Frame rake question.....

you can go to gearhead college .org and click on engineering. take the time to read about front end geometry then make your decision on how to attack your bike.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Re: Frame rake question.....

I got home yesterday and measured the rake and trail I have right now. Axle measurement is 13.25. Neck height is 35". Tripple tree rake is 7 deg. Frame rake is 29-30. The calculation came up with a rake and trail # of like 1.2" or so. According to thier chart this is horrible. I personally have not had any ill affects. I will have to rake the frame out to 41-42 deg to get the trail # to 3.5+ which appears to be a acceptable # according to the online chart. This will give me about 48 deg of total rake. Now that being said. Any more rake in the frame is going to make the trail # better as far as I can tell. What I have right now seems to be about as bad as it gets! Looks to me like no matter what I do I will just be helping myself.





I think I said earlier I recently sat on a warrior that had 12 deg of frame rake and 6 deg of tree rake. That put his total @ about 48 deg. He had the stock length forks and it looked really good. Hopefully I will find something out today. I will update as I find out new info on this for anyone interested.
 
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