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Discussion Starter #1
All,
As I'm pushing more and more out of the nitrous Warrior, I'm paying closer attention to things I've taken for granted in the past. For instance, I always assumed that by running good fuel and using additives, the fuel injectors would stay in their as-designed condition. Also, I've been trying endlessly to find out various information as to the EFI parts, one of them being the injector specs and cross references.

Recently, I noticed that my front (#2) cylinder was running a little leaner than the rear, on occasion, even backfiring through the stack when on the nitrous. Crowd loved it, rider pooped his pants. I've been told that V-Twins in general run differently front to back, and indeed there is usually some offset built into the ECU to compensate for the initial exhaust readings they take at the factory. Well, just for the heck of it, I decided to take the injectors to MPS Racing www.mpsracing.com to get them flowed and cleaned. Besides, I wanted to really see how much fuel can be pushed through them as well. MPS is the outfit that I deal with for all my electronic fuel, ignition, and nitrous stuff. Dan Rudd has been racing for many years, and all he services are motorcycles. I have attached a copy of the report he sent. A couple of highlights. Note that #2 was flowing less than #1, which could explain part of my imbalance. Note that after cleaning, both injectors flowed not only more, but also identical amounts of fuel. Finally, note that I had him flow at higher pressures typical of the Warrior system (55 vs 45 psi) so I could get a baseline for the flow rate. Using this number, there are online calculators that can tell you the horsepower potential of this size injector. Also, note that he also replaces the oring and fuel filters on the injectors. I highly recommend that if your bike has a few miles on it, if you've rebuilt it or added some hop up parts, are looking to get it mapped, or just want to give it a really good bluiprinted tune up, save yourself a lot of headaches and spend the $50 or so bucks to get this done. If you have any questions, give me or MPS a call. Their info is in the header of the report.

Regards,



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What I find interesting about this is that there are separate fuel filters on the injectors-I know I'm showing my ignorance here, but I was unaware of that.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Thanks, guys. I work for Chevron Lubricants as an Industrial and Automotive specialist supporting our southeast business area. Before Chevron, I worked for Amoco for 16 years in the Naperville Research Center automotive laboratory. I ran literally thousands of dynamometer tests on fuel and lubricant formulations. For over 8 those years, I was in charge of their climate controlled wind tunnel/chassis dynamometer where we could simulate just about any area from -40 to over 120F, 0-100% humidity. Part of that testing was the fuel additives, mostly the Techron which was used in all our pump gasolines, and is the same product in concentrate form that you buy at the auto parts store under the Techron name. It is also the same additive in the "ring free" stuff marketed by Yamaha and others. Here's what I learned about fuel detergents:

Gasoline is formulated with many components, everything ranging from gasses like butane to heavy, high octane components like toluene and xylene. This broad mix of components is designed to allow the gasoline to vaporize at low temperatures to insure easy start-up and driveability, but also provide the heavier, BTU capabilities of the "heavier" components. There are a few balancing acts that occur.

One, the fuel has to be blended for the different weather conditions. Fuels for cold, northern winter conditions have higher volatility, which means that they have more "lighter" components to act as "kindling" to insure that the fuel will allow the engine to start and run without stumbling. In warm climates, these fuels could cause vapor lock at the higher temperatures. These volatility models are the result of much testing, both in the wind tunnel and out in the field. You would not believe the blending models that a major oil company has to deal with.

Two, the higher octane, heavier, more energy containing components can cause problems with deposits. These components have high boiling points, and also contain materials that can cause heavy deposits in the engine. One of the features of the old Amoco Premium in the south and midwest was the fact that it was stripped of some of the chemicals that caused some of these deposits. This gave it a clear look and engines running that fuel (actually that fuel was designed back in 1927) tended to have cleaner combustion chamber and valves.

Now for detergents:

In the early days of carburetors, detergents only had to control the formation gums and varnishing in the carburetors and intake manifold. These deposits were residue left over after the fuel vaporized. Anybody who has tried to start a vehicle or machine that's been sitting for a long period of time has experienced the effects of this varnishing.

When port fuel injection came out, another issue developed. With the injector so close to the intake valve, whenever the engine was shut off, there was usually a drop of fuel remaining on the tip of the injector that was exposed to heat from the engine after the shutdown, especially if the intake valve was open. Over time, these drops "cooking off" will form deposits on the injector tips, disrupting the spray pattern, and even the flow, preventing proper atomization and causing driveability problems. The oil companies responded to this issue by stepping up the amount of traditional carburetor detergents in the fuel.

This cleaned the injectors but, unfortunately, moved the deposits downstream to other areas, particularly the intake valves and combustion chamber. This was the time it was decided that traditional detergents weren't up to task. Problem is, most detergents are chemicals that keep contaminants in a solution of sorts. When the solution evaporates, like fuel, the deposits AND detergents drop out and can plate on the parts. This is one of the reasons for deposits on pistons. Fuel and oil cook off and leave the ash containing material on the parts. Oronite Chemical, a division of Chevron, formulated the additive you know as Techron today. This additive not only prevented deposits on injector tips, but also works on higher temperature areas like valves and combustion chambers.

To answer your question, YES, the additives work extremely well. Major oil companies use these types of "full deposit control" additives in all their gasolines, increasing the dosage as you move up in octane grade. What I found, however, is that there are some areas of the injector, depending on the type, that the gasoline does not reach. Unfortunately, the fuel only flows one way, so deposits can still form on the outside of the nozzle housing. Even with all my experience, I did not realize this was happening, until I did further digging. Again, some injectors are more sensitive to this than others, and it seems that the Warrior injectors are some of the unlucky ones. (By the way, our injectors are the same ones used on the 2000 Mitsubishi Starion 4 cylinder engine.) To see a better explanation, go to www.mpsracing.com. They have illustrated this effect in much more detail.

Also, yes there are tiny filters in the injectors themselves. When serviced, these are replaced. All together, the Warrior has three levels of "filter" protection. The screen in the tank outlet, the filter sock in the pump tank, and the injector filters.

I hope this has helped. I apologize for being windy, but if this can clear up some of the confusion, let me know.
 

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Sam:
Thanks for the detailed reply. The big picture helps fill in a couple pieces of the puzzle.

Ed:
Any idea if seafoam will clean the outer area of the injector and carry everything out the exhaust pipe, or will it also burn off and deposit the crud in the engine?

Sam (again):
Are you saying formulated gasolines today make it unnecessary to occasionally use injector cleaner?
 

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After further discussion with our own personal injector specialist, (Thank you Sam) I think I am going to stay away from the Seafoam and try his suggestion. I will pull my injector's this winter and send them out to mpsracing to have them cleaned and tested....Thank you for this posting. Very educational, Very Informative. Now, where should I put this as a "Sticky"???.
 

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Hey Ed, given I have never cleaned my injectors since I owned the bike I at least wanted to give it a seafoam treatment. How much did your use for a full tank of gas?

AH!, their website says 1-ounce per gallon. Is that about what you did, like roughly what.... 2.5oz to a full tank??

Bottom of their page "When added to Fuel Tank"
http://www.seafoamsales.com/motorTuneUpTechGas.htm
 

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Read the Bottle. Do not quote me, but if memory serves me it is 2 ounces per gallon of gasoline. I could be wrong.

quote:Originally posted by gchalifo

Hey Ed, given I have never cleaned my injectors since I owned the bike I at least wanted to give it a seafoam treatment. How much did your use for a full tank of gas?
 

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Discussion Starter #12
From my report, there was about two percent difference between the two injectors before cleaning. A total improvement of over 4% for one and 2.7 for the other. I'm not convinced that this was explaining the difference in plug readings. There are other variables in the engine. Regarding the map, in my case the difference isn't that large, so I don't think the map will suffer. The wideband will tell along with the plug readings. Regarding Seafoam, any good detergent cleaner will get after the injectors. Usually a small amount is needed to keep them clean. What I learned from Dan at MPS is that there are areas that are missed by the fuel spray in the injector head that build deposits. Again, take a look at the pictures on the MPS website. And yes, all major fuel companies put additives in their fuels. Most of them are using the Techron or it's clone. I like to add more to the fuel, just for insurance. Keep in mind, you all, that I'm a little more paranoid about the condition of my engine than most, since I'm running so much nitrous (over 100 hp) on top of the engine. I can't afford any mistakes, especially in the form of deposits. Not only can I get a lean out condition which causes noisy backfires and fire shows, but hard deposits on the pistons and combustion chambers can pre-ignite the mixture and blow the heads off the engine.
 

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Great information from everyone here, thanks. I have a spare set of injectors, I think I'll send them off for testing and cleaning and then when I swap them out have the originals done.
 

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I pulled my plugs today and noticed that the rear jug was running considerably rich. Could this be from the injectors needing a cleaning (only 9K miles)or should I look at changing the parameters in the map? Front plugs looked nicely worn. Do we have to balance our intakes like carbed bikes do?
 

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Vall345 - Wow, the pics tell the tale!

Did you ever send your injectors in, Ed?

As I near 20k I'm thinking about how I ran high test in ignorance (before I joined the forum) and how my self-tuning of the the Cobra fi2000, and later the pre-mapped PC111, left a rich mix. I wonder how much carbon n sh|t is on my injectors, intake, and combustion chambers.
 

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I’ve used WitchHunter Performance in Maltby, Wa for a couple of my trucks. Even a 1-2% increase after cleaning injectors may seem small on paper but it makes a Huge difference in overall performance, drivability and throttle response, even if actual hp stays the same . Look up their webpage
 
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