quote:Originally posted by DarkStar
...... What amazes me is the folks questioning the variables and results are the same folks who run power sucking exhaust systems. I provided the information, documented. If it makes you all feel better to convince yourself otherwise then so be it, but I know for a fact that when I twist it up there is no comparision between the Propipe and the Rineharts when it comes down to power to the pavement. This has been proven by Craig and it has been proven from professional folks at Patrick Racing, Orient Express and Frankenstein.

King of Power is The Propipe! End of Story!


I run rinehart flushes and I like them for their sound and looks. I am sure I gave up some power when I changed to them and I knew that going into it. There is a point for everyone where they make decisions on what to do with their bike based upon their own personal preference in lieu of whether it makes the most power or not. Everyone around here (even owners w/ different bikes) know the pro-pipe. I don't want to have something everyone readily knows and have even on their non-warrior. I, for one, don't have to convince myself I've made the right choice.
My only comment about differing variables was in the context of comparing the two setups. There is no doubt in my mind that the Propipe makes more power. Just how much and where is the question for me. Just trying to understand the differences b/c I too felt a little loss on the low end and a bit more gain on the high end with my change.
It amazes me how when someone questions or offers a differing opinion one gets so darned defensive. Yeah, you were "nice" enough to post some info, does that mean folks can't ask questions or make comments that differ from your opinion? I count at least three in this thread looking at it from an objective point of view. You should've just stuck to talking about the pipes instead of attacking the people who were "kind" enough to reply to your post. This was a discussion forum the last time I checked. That's just silly - go ahead, take your ball and go home....

 

quote:Originally posted by mdfdwarrior

Originally posted by BusaMan

+1 too many variables for a fair comparison....


I agree that there are variables involved. Those variables were of my choosing. I was not impressed with the 1-1/2" belt drive, even as cool as it looks and the idea behind it. It was and now I know is not a practical option for my Warrior. I know my Warrior and how it rides under me and regardless of the variables between the comparison of the Propipe vs. Rinehart. What the Propipe has provided me with is the ability of reaching the full potential of my internal modifications. However you want to read into this is fine. My Warrior is a Monster with the Propipe. The torque is amazing when you twist it up off the line and it does not drop off throughout the entire rpm range. When I originally switched from the Propipe to the Rineharts I knew I lost power. It was a fact proven with custom mapping, even if it was a different tuner, who by the way is another awesome Dyno Tuner. Now, if I had left the Rinehart out of this conversation the power numbers speak for themselves, documented.

After Craig finished up the mapping we did 5 power pulls.

1) 107.5 Hp @ 4589rpm / 135ft-lbs @ 3720rpm
2) 107.3 Hp @ 4599rpm / 136ft-lbs @ 3733rpm
3) 107.6 Hp @ 4733rpm / 137ft-lbs @ 3625rpm
4) 107.7 Hp @ 4598rpm / 136ft-lbs @ 3730rpm
5) 107.1 Hp @ 4639rpm / 136ft-lbs @ 3597rpm

There is no denying the power to the pavement. The butt o meter reinforces what the Dynometer has proven. Craig pulled gobs of fuel out of the Rinehart Map, which we all know the leaner you run the more power you will put to the pavement. My map is as close to as perfect as it can get without a doubt in my mind. I was standing there the entire time watching Craig do his magic. The man has talent, he is educated and knows what needs to be done when it comes to tuning high performance engines. Most importantly to me is Craig treated my Warrior as it was his own. I wished I had met him earlier in my Warrior ownership. Great guy and an amazingly talented Tuner.

 

quote:Originally posted by mdfdwarrior


You should've just stuck to talking about the pipes instead of attacking the people who were "kind" enough to reply to your post. This was a discussion forum the last time I checked. That's just silly - go ahead, take your ball and go home....


Sorry if it seemed I was attacking. I was not and it was not intentional on my part. Just stating what is obvious to me. You do not know me personally nor do I know you on a personal level. I am sure if we did we would understand each other more clearly and share in great conversation. As for taking the ball home mentality sounds like someone other than me needs to thicken up a bit more....[/emoticons/emotion-5.gif] I am just kidding.[/emoticons/emotion-2.gif] OK, no more talking about the Rineharts.

 

WOW Three pages.. I just Hope your Happy with it.. After all its your bike not ours.. I have reinharts and have had bigshots and a 2into1 HK after burner and the reinharts are by far the best looking and worst performing of the three.. So when you pass me, just know.. " My Pipes Look better"...lol...

 

Just to speak to some issues:

Ed,

You're too kind. Thanks for coming by. Always great to work with someone who is knowledgeable and enthusiastic. I had fun – it wasn't just a regular old PC mapping job.

Nice shot of my @ss if I do say so myself. Do those jeans make my butt look too small? I think the foil on my left sleeve is pretty cool too. I also see a nice shot of the broken pinky finger on my left hand. The hammer won and pinky lost; my kid will never let me live that down.

flb_78, The switch box came just as a bare plastic box. Kind of silly for something to be used on a motorcycle. So, I actually attached a chamois to the back to allow me to place it on a tank w/o damage.

There are good questions about dyno-to-dyno repeatability raised.
I could talk about This subject all day. In this case, I can say yes, there is a good chance that two Dynojets 5 miles apart will vary by several percent. My Dynojet software testing proved that changing software version to software version varied the power readings. That alone tells you they diddle with the maths when converting torque and RPM at the drum to HP readings.

In this case all my Dynojet controls are gone. The unit is an original DJ Model 100 – very low serial no. I threw out all the DJ electronics a while ago. The eddy current brake, software, and control system are all made by T.T.E. Dynostar in the Netherlands. It's made to read similar to a Dynojet, but perhaps slightly less optimistic. I can say that in general we know that a BMW K1200 should make about 90 ponies – on this dyno they do. Twin cam 88 Harleys should be around 66-68 ponies stock, they do. With good pipes and filter 75 hp is possible. V-max-es get about 110 to 112 stock, which is about where they should be. I have however had a 134 hp version of a Max on this dyno. Typical stock Hayabusa is about 153 ponies stock with about 99 ft-lbs. at peak - 159 w/pipe - 165 to 168 with air-box mods. A few more mods and 175+ is not uncommon. So, it reads in a similar fashion to the average Dynojet.

My dyno also has a load cell on the eddy brake. It gets calibrated with a weighted arm of known value. If you believe the torque and believe the rpm, then the hp must be true when doing a step and hold test.

That said, it is also entirely possible for the previous Rinehart run to be very different than my readings. What Ed and I discussed, is that although the dynos might vary (by say 4% -which is pretty big), his Rhinehart run could be 104.5 hp while his test on mine could be as low as 102 to 103 hp. At worst that puts them in the same ballpark. How do we know this combo is any good then? If we figure the old 120 ft lb might be as high as 125-ish, the Pro -pipe might be as low as 130-ish. It would seem the VHR propipe still wins. It's the most torque from a push rod V-twin I've ever tested - that had a license plate on it any way (one Harley drag bike made 190 ft-lbs.).

Therefore, is it a guaranteed, 100% direct comparison? No. Is it an optimistic (happy) dyno or a pessimistic (sad) dyno? I don't think so. I think it's pretty comparable to most other units. Only a back to back comparison would be a definite for the pipe compar0, but the torque increase tells the biggest part of the story, IMHO. I believe both dynos would have to be way off in order to vary that widely in measured power.

I also brought up a graph showing Ed's bike compared to a modified 177 hp Hayabusa. That bike made 115 to 118 ft.-lbs in a very flat curve. Ed's bike stomped the ‘Busa up to 5000 rpm carrying his 20 ft.-lb. advantage most of the way up the rev range. The Warrior curves down while the ‘Busa climbs to its peak - until the two torque curves meet and shake hands at around 5K rpm. Very impressive to compare the two engine outputs. Knowing this was a stout ‘Busa puts the Warrior's power into perspective.

All in all, I was very impressed with the combination Darkstar has put together. It runs great and makes a S$%^e load of torque at low RPM. It makes V-Rod type HP and almost double the torque. The cool thing is that the bike looks great and has real motor in it. The bike is absolutely beautiful in person. If you are in the area, you should check this bike out. The paint is flawless and the attention to detail shows. I have to admit, I took a few minutes on Saturday night to cut off the little steel guards on the dyno that go around the inertia drum. I've had V-Stars touch their frames on those guards while driving onto the dyno. I didn't want to chance scratching his frame so a few minutes with a cut off wheel and they're gone now. Good thing too. Although there was plenty of room, the underside of the bike was clean so any scrapes would be visible to Ed when he washes the bike! At least now other folks will have a little more clearance too.

It maybe that in the future we'll do some back to back pipe analysis. There's a lot of stuff I'd love to test.

Thanks a bunch

 

Craig , Nice post !

Kyle

 

good post Craig - wish I had a tuner like you in my area....

 

Thanks Ed & Craig for an informative write up.
I'm wondering if Craig would be able/willing to post up some insight on how to get a good map made. I think that would make a great article that many of us would have an interest in.
I don't expect someone to give out "trade secrets" but something like how to prepare your bike for the tuner, what combinations seem to work best together for big power v/s fuel economy etc.
Thanks, Mike

 

Thanks Craig for your imput.I stand by my 1st post on this topic.I just stated the obvious.I would have liked to seen the results with the same tuner & same belt & pulley so we all could see the true difference between the 2 pipes.Butt-Dynos are like a$$holes, we all have them.I bought power robbing pipes as you call them because they look great & sound great & were the cheapest price.I have no doubt whatsoever that V&H produce more power than what I have.I wanted looks & sound @ the cheapest price & I don't think any other factory pipe can compete with Samson on those 3 things.My other bike is a hotrod, I bought the Warrior for comfort & style.If we ever meet you can ride my Warrior & you will find her not as fast or good looking as yours but you will find her very street-able as I call her.My pipes will always look & sound better though![8D]

 

quote:Originally posted by BusaMan

Thanks Craig for your imput.I stand by my 1st post on this topic.I just stated the obvious.I would have liked to seen the results with the same tuner & same belt & pulley so we all could see the true difference between the 2 pipes.Butt-Dynos are like a$$holes, we all have them.I bought power robbing pipes as you call them because they look great & sound great & were the cheapest price.I have no doubt whatsoever that V&H produce more power than what I have.I wanted looks & sound @ the cheapest price & I don't think any other factory pipe can compete with Samson on those 3 things.My other bike is a hotrod, I bought the Warrior for comfort & style.If we ever meet you can ride my Warrior & you will find her not as fast or good looking as yours but you will find her very street-able as I call her.My pipes will always look & sound better though![8D]


Your selection criteria did not include any form of efficiency or performance. So why are you so concerned?

Did you want DS to get a tune from 1 dyno with just the pipe, and then do the belt change and go to Craig for the real tune? Life is not perfect, but there is enough info there to tell me that a good 2 into 1 pipe will outperform a 2 into 2.

BTW, I run Bub Chambermaids for essentially the same reasons that you are running Sampsons. But I prefer the less noisy sound of the Bubs. INVHO. [/emoticons/emotion-2.gif]

 

1) The first thing you want to do is make sure you have a "Full" tank of good, clean gas. I run 93+ high octane. We ran my tank many miles after the fuel light came on and Yes, it was full when we started.[/emoticons/emotion-2.gif]

2) Clean Air Filters or new if running stock.

3) Check to make sure you have "No Exhaust Leaks". Torque the header pipes to spec prior to tune, especially check the megaphone at slip on point of exhaust.

4) Tire pressure needs to be checked and adjusted if need be. Make sure you have good tread. A bald tire is going to slip on the drum.

5) Check oil level and or Oil & Filter Change is not a must do, but I did mine the week prior just for peace of mind. Full Synthetic Mobil 1 V-Twin 20w50 is what I run.

6) Adjust drive belt to correct & proper tension. Less tension is best.

7) Sparks Plugs are clean or new.

I think that covers what needs to be done to prep for a custom map. Craig might have some other trade secrets to share if I missed anything.

Folks have got to remember that a custom map is about getting "Correct Air/Fuel Mixture" to achieve "Optimum Performance" throughout the entire rpm range out of the the engine that is being custom mapped. Be it a highly Modified Warrior or a Stock Warrior. Once a custom map is achieved then you can collect data on true HP & Torque #'s right along with Optimum Fuel Economy. The two go hand in hand.

Big Power comes from internal modifications, air kits and the King of Power The Propipe[/emoticons/emotion-1.gif] Read My Warrior Description in My Gallery.

I am sure if I missed anything Craig will chime in with his technical expertize...

quote:Originally posted by 1fast1

Thanks Ed & Craig for an informative write up.
I'm wondering if Craig would be able/willing to post up some insight on how to get a good map made. I think that would make a great article that many of us would have an interest in.
I don't expect someone to give out "trade secrets" but something like how to prepare your bike for the tuner, what combinations seem to work best together for big power v/s fuel economy etc.
Thanks, Mike

 

Hey Ed thanks for the info. I recently put a propipe on my bike in place of the Bigshots. I had a custom map done with the bigshots and am headed to the same tuner for the Propipe so I will have a fairly accurate back to back comparison between the two pipes. Hopefully will have it done this week and will post it here.
Again thanks for the info, hopefully I'll be as happy as you with the propipe. I know it sounds great.

 

i have been looking for someone in my area to get a custom map done that will actually work with anything thats not a harley.what is the average cost craig,i know its all how much time you have to spend so i wont hold you or anyone to their word im just trying to get an idea of about how much money i need to start hiding from the wife .i too have rineharts w/monster baffles not to start more trouble (just kidding).along with vbak,ais blocked,10.2 patrick racing pistons and the free downloaded map from dice just isnt cutting it, i know there is alot of wasted fuel.let me know if you are interested thanks, jeff

 

5 pulls after map was completed.

 

Ed, I noticed that the pulls ended @ about 5300-5400
I assume pulls were done in 4th gear. would bike have pulled to 5500
or is that just where Craig let off?

I noticed on another map of yours that there were numbers in the boxes up to 5750, just curious as to why not pull til fuel cut off?

I have appt for custom map on Thursday 7-12 my s* ecu will arrive tomorrow. Thanks for all the info & more.

Mike

 

Hi Mike,
Significant power is loss when you start to bounce off the rev-limiter. The rev-limiter is a protect all. All the power (hp & torque) is made between 3500 rpm's and 4800 rpm's on my Warrior....no need to push it beyond. The power dropped drastically at or around 5000-5200rpms. I just changed my Raptor Shift Light to 4800 rpms vs. 5200 rpms where I had it set before my map.....you want to be shifting right at peak power rather then when your power band is dropping off.....


quote:Originally posted by 1fast1

Ed, I noticed that the pulls ended @ about 5300-5400
I assume pulls were done in 4th gear. would bike have pulled to 5500
or is that just where Craig let off?

I noticed on another map of yours that there were numbers in the boxes up to 5750, just currious as to why not pull til fuel cut off?

I have appt for custom map on Thursday 7-12 my s* ecu will arrive tomarrow. Thanks for all the info & more.

Mike

 

Jeff,

I charge $250 for custom map on a Power Commander or Yoshimura EMS. This usually takes from 2 to 4 hours.

 

Sorry to blow your hp-fest but numbers from different dynos mean almost nothing when compared to each other. I would not be surprised if many bikes make a couple more hps on that dyno...

I would be more curious as to why your AF is above 18 at lower rpms.

 

What graph are you talking about Oliver? If it happens to be this graph posted below if you notice it is a step and hold graph that zero's in on my power band between 3650 rpm's up to 5000 rpm's. Note: the solid line right at 3650 rpm. That is the indicator to where data is being recorded. This is where my Warrior makes its most power. It is not reading what is going on below 3650 rpms, so if I am understanding the step & hold graph anything below 3650 is irrelevant data. I could be wrong and I know for a fact I am not the know it all when it comes to being a Master Tuner, but I am sure Craig who is the expert on this topic will be more than happy to educate us all in this procedure.

quote:Originally posted by Frankenstein

Sorry to blow your hp-fest but numbers from different dynos mean almost nothing when compared to each other. I would not be surprised if many bikes make a couple more hps on that dyno...

I would be more curious as to why your AF is above 18 at lower rpms.

 

quote:Originally posted by Frankenstein

Sorry to blow your hp-fest but numbers from different dynos mean almost nothing when compared to each other. I would not be surprised if many bikes make a couple more hps on that dyno...

I would be more curious as to why your AF is above 18 at lower rpms.


+1

 

I am sure once Craig gets on line he will explain the graph and he is welcome to post up more graphs. I know he documented quite a bit of recorded data.

quote:Originally posted by flb_78

quote:Originally posted by Frankenstein

Sorry to blow your hp-fest but numbers from different dynos mean almost nothing when compared to each other. I would not be surprised if many bikes make a couple more hps on that dyno...

I would be more curious as to why your AF is above 18 at lower rpms.


+1

 

quote:Originally posted by The_Bear
Your selection criteria did not include any form of efficiency or performance. So why are you so concerned?

Did you want DS to get a tune from 1 dyno with just the pipe, and then do the belt change and go to Craig for the real tune? Life is not perfect, but there is enough info there to tell me that a good 2 into 1 pipe will outperform a 2 into 2.

BTW, I run Bub Chambermaids for essentially the same reasons that you are running Sampsons. But I prefer the less noisy sound of the Bubs. INVHO. [/emoticons/emotion-2.gif]



John,
I have made an appointment with Nault Honda to do a couple of pulls on their Dyno next week July 19th. I am just as interested to read the difference between both Dyno's.

 

+2. i didn't catch that til now...now that i'm lookin at it, that is of concern...which is not a direct-hp concern but more of a too-lean concern. wow, that is off the map....[?][8D]quote:Originally posted by flb_78

quote:Originally posted by Frankenstein

Sorry to blow your hp-fest but numbers from different dynos mean almost nothing when compared to each other. I would not be surprised if many bikes make a couple more hps on that dyno...

I would be more curious as to why your AF is above 18 at lower rpms.


+1

 

The best way to speak to this, is to quote my friend Adam Wade. He speaks to some of this in his book, Motorcycle Fuel Injection Handbook.

“At part throttle [the beginning of a roll on test] the burn slows down… In cases like this the mixture remaining in the exhaust will be increasingly unburned as there is less and less throttle opening. Even if you have the mixture for best power the increase in unburned mixture will mean an increase in residual oxygen (as well as HC). So in addition to running lean, you get an increase in residual oxygen in the exhaust from the slower burn. As you approach either rich or lean misfire, you also increase residual oxygen levels.

The problem is, there is no way to tell one cause from another just by looking at residual oxygen. In the case of closed throttle at higher rpm, you would need to run too rich a mixture to get a minimal residual oxygen reading.”

The tuner must always keep the latency of O2 sensor response and the mixture at the time of rapid throttle transition (opening) in mind. In this case if I had tuned to the O2 sensors reading at the beginning of the Roll On test, I could make a pretty graph with a nice flat O2 reading, but with way too much fuel at lower rpm.
Ahh, We come to O2 sensors!

The best way to tell actual Air fuel Ratio (AFR) with a wide band O2 is with step and hold testing. We either program the dyno to hold the engine still at specific rpm points and take the data (such as power and AFR) or command the dyno to hold RPM points indefinitely as we adjust the fueling.

Roll On testing (using simple wide open throttle against the load of the drum only – resulting in immediate acceleration) delivers transient graphs. Meaning the exhaust gas sample will flow very slowly past the sensor at first resulting in a reading on the graph that can be anywhere between several hundred to several thousand RPM higher on the graph than where the actual lean area occurs. At low rpm this is severe, it disappears at higher rpm – higher throttle positions.

Thus the lower end of a Roll On test will not display AFR readings at say 3000 rpm that actually have occurred at 3000 rpm. The reading is actually something that occurred at perhaps 2000 rpm. How can we be certain this is true? We hold the engine still at points between 2000 and 3000 rpm and sample the AFR. This is the only true way to be sure that low rpm readings are correct.

We know Ed's bike is running much richer than the Roll On graph indicates at those RPM points because we performed several step and hold runs through those ranges.

The next question you might have is, ‘Why do the readings start out so lean anyway?' This is very complex but I will try to answer by quoting my friend Adam Wade:

Thus the way to truly determine low rpm fueling as we transition from partial throttle to Wide Open Throttle (WOT) is to test while holding the motor at static rpm levels and letting the exhaust gas reading stabilize.

Does the average tune at the dealer ship know and compensate for this? In general, No. Have they tested their AFR meter for latency? Probably not. During testing on Ed's bike I made specific low RPM ranges super rich in order to see where the rich reading appeared on the graph during a roll on. That helped me determine what the rpm delta in roll on test response would be. Does the average dealer tuner do this? Depends on the tuner. Many just throw a bunch of fuel at the low end in order to make the graph look pretty. Also as Mr. Wade points out, theO2 reading may indeed be lean at low rpm even when tuned for peak power. The reading however does not represent the true picture of actual combustion and can be very misleading.

Adam continues: “ Many professionals use Wide band O2 sensors in their tuning regimen. Accordingly many consumers decided that if the pros could use them to their advantage, so could they. [Then] How come they can't get the same results the pros do? The difference is, the pros understand what they are seeing from the sensor and only use what is appropriate. If you're not armed with that basic understanding of what you're getting and what it's good for, you can't use a WBO2 sensor as an effective tuning tool.”

 

This is what is really going on at 100% at 3-4K RPM How the bike was fueling as delivered.

This is where I took out a little of the excess fuel.

Here is where we wing up. A little rich at the lowest rpm point. This helps fight detonation as the throttle goes to WOT at 3K or less. Next we move on to the 5-5K rpm range and tune the 4K cell a little richer, etc.

Notice how when we actually HOLD the engine still and sample the AFR it is much different than a Roll On?

Of course we could throw a fire hose of fuel at the lower rpm points to make a pretty graph showing perfectly flat AFR - but I would never do that to a customer. I would rather take the time to talk to them, show them the differences and send them out happy. It takes more time,but the result is a better performing bike.

The dyno is a great tool but it must be well understood by the operator. Like any tool it's only as good as the person using it.

I hope that helps explain some of what is viewed here.