[1fast1]

Ed, I noticed that the pulls ended @ about 5300-5400
I assume pulls were done in 4th gear. would bike have pulled to 5500
or is that just where Craig let off?

I noticed on another map of yours that there were numbers in the boxes up to 5750, just curious as to why not pull til fuel cut off?

I have appt for custom map on Thursday 7-12 my s* ecu will arrive tomorrow. Thanks for all the info & more.

Mike

 

[darkstar]

Hi Mike,
Significant power is loss when you start to bounce off the rev-limiter. The rev-limiter is a protect all. All the power (hp & torque) is made between 3500 rpm's and 4800 rpm's on my Warrior....no need to push it beyond. The power dropped drastically at or around 5000-5200rpms. I just changed my Raptor Shift Light to 4800 rpms vs. 5200 rpms where I had it set before my map.....you want to be shifting right at peak power rather then when your power band is dropping off.....


quote:Originally posted by 1fast1

Ed, I noticed that the pulls ended @ about 5300-5400
I assume pulls were done in 4th gear. would bike have pulled to 5500
or is that just where Craig let off?

I noticed on another map of yours that there were numbers in the boxes up to 5750, just currious as to why not pull til fuel cut off?

I have appt for custom map on Thursday 7-12 my s* ecu will arrive tomarrow. Thanks for all the info & more.

Mike

 

[craig]

Jeff,

I charge $250 for custom map on a Power Commander or Yoshimura EMS. This usually takes from 2 to 4 hours.

 

[Frankenstein]

Sorry to blow your hp-fest but numbers from different dynos mean almost nothing when compared to each other. I would not be surprised if many bikes make a couple more hps on that dyno...

I would be more curious as to why your AF is above 18 at lower rpms.

 

[darkstar]

What graph are you talking about Oliver? If it happens to be this graph posted below if you notice it is a step and hold graph that zero's in on my power band between 3650 rpm's up to 5000 rpm's. Note: the solid line right at 3650 rpm. That is the indicator to where data is being recorded. This is where my Warrior makes its most power. It is not reading what is going on below 3650 rpms, so if I am understanding the step & hold graph anything below 3650 is irrelevant data. I could be wrong and I know for a fact I am not the know it all when it comes to being a Master Tuner, but I am sure Craig who is the expert on this topic will be more than happy to educate us all in this procedure.

quote:Originally posted by Frankenstein

Sorry to blow your hp-fest but numbers from different dynos mean almost nothing when compared to each other. I would not be surprised if many bikes make a couple more hps on that dyno...

I would be more curious as to why your AF is above 18 at lower rpms.

 

[flb_78]

quote:Originally posted by Frankenstein

Sorry to blow your hp-fest but numbers from different dynos mean almost nothing when compared to each other. I would not be surprised if many bikes make a couple more hps on that dyno...

I would be more curious as to why your AF is above 18 at lower rpms.


+1

 

[darkstar]

I am sure once Craig gets on line he will explain the graph and he is welcome to post up more graphs. I know he documented quite a bit of recorded data.

quote:Originally posted by flb_78

quote:Originally posted by Frankenstein

Sorry to blow your hp-fest but numbers from different dynos mean almost nothing when compared to each other. I would not be surprised if many bikes make a couple more hps on that dyno...

I would be more curious as to why your AF is above 18 at lower rpms.


+1

 

[darkstar]

quote:Originally posted by The_Bear
Your selection criteria did not include any form of efficiency or performance. So why are you so concerned?

Did you want DS to get a tune from 1 dyno with just the pipe, and then do the belt change and go to Craig for the real tune? Life is not perfect, but there is enough info there to tell me that a good 2 into 1 pipe will outperform a 2 into 2.

BTW, I run Bub Chambermaids for essentially the same reasons that you are running Sampsons. But I prefer the less noisy sound of the Bubs. INVHO. [/emoticons/emotion-2.gif]



John,
I have made an appointment with Nault Honda to do a couple of pulls on their Dyno next week July 19th. I am just as interested to read the difference between both Dyno's.

 

[wip]

+2. i didn't catch that til now...now that i'm lookin at it, that is of concern...which is not a direct-hp concern but more of a too-lean concern. wow, that is off the map....[?][8D]quote:Originally posted by flb_78

quote:Originally posted by Frankenstein

Sorry to blow your hp-fest but numbers from different dynos mean almost nothing when compared to each other. I would not be surprised if many bikes make a couple more hps on that dyno...

I would be more curious as to why your AF is above 18 at lower rpms.


+1

 

[craig]

The best way to speak to this, is to quote my friend Adam Wade. He speaks to some of this in his book, Motorcycle Fuel Injection Handbook.

“At part throttle [the beginning of a roll on test] the burn slows down… In cases like this the mixture remaining in the exhaust will be increasingly unburned as there is less and less throttle opening. Even if you have the mixture for best power the increase in unburned mixture will mean an increase in residual oxygen (as well as HC). So in addition to running lean, you get an increase in residual oxygen in the exhaust from the slower burn. As you approach either rich or lean misfire, you also increase residual oxygen levels.

The problem is, there is no way to tell one cause from another just by looking at residual oxygen. In the case of closed throttle at higher rpm, you would need to run too rich a mixture to get a minimal residual oxygen reading.”

The tuner must always keep the latency of O2 sensor response and the mixture at the time of rapid throttle transition (opening) in mind. In this case if I had tuned to the O2 sensors reading at the beginning of the Roll On test, I could make a pretty graph with a nice flat O2 reading, but with way too much fuel at lower rpm.
Ahh, We come to O2 sensors!

The best way to tell actual Air fuel Ratio (AFR) with a wide band O2 is with step and hold testing. We either program the dyno to hold the engine still at specific rpm points and take the data (such as power and AFR) or command the dyno to hold RPM points indefinitely as we adjust the fueling.

Roll On testing (using simple wide open throttle against the load of the drum only – resulting in immediate acceleration) delivers transient graphs. Meaning the exhaust gas sample will flow very slowly past the sensor at first resulting in a reading on the graph that can be anywhere between several hundred to several thousand RPM higher on the graph than where the actual lean area occurs. At low rpm this is severe, it disappears at higher rpm – higher throttle positions.

Thus the lower end of a Roll On test will not display AFR readings at say 3000 rpm that actually have occurred at 3000 rpm. The reading is actually something that occurred at perhaps 2000 rpm. How can we be certain this is true? We hold the engine still at points between 2000 and 3000 rpm and sample the AFR. This is the only true way to be sure that low rpm readings are correct.

We know Ed's bike is running much richer than the Roll On graph indicates at those RPM points because we performed several step and hold runs through those ranges.

The next question you might have is, ‘Why do the readings start out so lean anyway?' This is very complex but I will try to answer by quoting my friend Adam Wade:

Thus the way to truly determine low rpm fueling as we transition from partial throttle to Wide Open Throttle (WOT) is to test while holding the motor at static rpm levels and letting the exhaust gas reading stabilize.

Does the average tune at the dealer ship know and compensate for this? In general, No. Have they tested their AFR meter for latency? Probably not. During testing on Ed's bike I made specific low RPM ranges super rich in order to see where the rich reading appeared on the graph during a roll on. That helped me determine what the rpm delta in roll on test response would be. Does the average dealer tuner do this? Depends on the tuner. Many just throw a bunch of fuel at the low end in order to make the graph look pretty. Also as Mr. Wade points out, theO2 reading may indeed be lean at low rpm even when tuned for peak power. The reading however does not represent the true picture of actual combustion and can be very misleading.

Adam continues: “ Many professionals use Wide band O2 sensors in their tuning regimen. Accordingly many consumers decided that if the pros could use them to their advantage, so could they. [Then] How come they can't get the same results the pros do? The difference is, the pros understand what they are seeing from the sensor and only use what is appropriate. If you're not armed with that basic understanding of what you're getting and what it's good for, you can't use a WBO2 sensor as an effective tuning tool.”

 

[craig]

This is what is really going on at 100% at 3-4K RPM How the bike was fueling as delivered.

This is where I took out a little of the excess fuel.

Here is where we wing up. A little rich at the lowest rpm point. This helps fight detonation as the throttle goes to WOT at 3K or less. Next we move on to the 5-5K rpm range and tune the 4K cell a little richer, etc.

Notice how when we actually HOLD the engine still and sample the AFR it is much different than a Roll On?

Of course we could throw a fire hose of fuel at the lower rpm points to make a pretty graph showing perfectly flat AFR - but I would never do that to a customer. I would rather take the time to talk to them, show them the differences and send them out happy. It takes more time,but the result is a better performing bike.

The dyno is a great tool but it must be well understood by the operator. Like any tool it's only as good as the person using it.

I hope that helps explain some of what is viewed here.

 

[ohiomike]

This is an awesome Thread.. Great PICS and explanation Thanks Craig and ED for sharing..

 

[darkstar]

Once Again....Thank you Craig for your patience in explaining and educating us on a subject most of us have no clue about or do not understand. Thank you Master Tuner[/emoticons/emotion-2.gif].

 

[Thor2daCore]

Great thread and posts. Craig's post was really informative, thanks.

 

[damian]

I just used up my whole dam lunch readin this.[/emoticons/emotion-2.gif]
Great just what I needed .... a faster Darkstar[/emoticons/emotion-5.gif]
I'll be over to see Craig when I can spare the $$.[/emoticons/emotion-4.gif]

 

[darkstar]

Hahaha....LoL! Your too funny my friend! A Faster DarkStar...LoL![/emoticons/emotion-2.gif]


quote:Originally posted by Damian

I just used up my whole dam lunch readin this.[/emoticons/emotion-2.gif]
Great just what I needed .... a faster Darkstar[/emoticons/emotion-5.gif]
I'll be over to see Craig when I can spare the $$.[/emoticons/emotion-4.gif]

 

[btm_fdr]

This discussion is a prime example why this forum/group rocks.Thanx Ed & Craig.

 

[108CI_Warrior]

DarkStar, awesome numbers. You have me by a nose. I may have to get rid of the big shots and go with the propipe. The torque on these monsters are almost as awesome as this forum.

 

[darkstar]

I just got back from a 100 mile ride to test out my new Custom Map. I put the map through the entire rpm range anywhere from full throttle, wide open acceleration getting on and running hard down the highway to down shifting on off ramps to country roads at cruising rpms of 2000-2500 rpms. I did casual roll ons from low rpms up through stages of 1500-3000 rpms and 3000-4000rpms up to 4000-5000rpms to include decelerations in the same stages. This was my way of testing the over all performance of the custom map.

I have had my Warrior since November 2001. I have had 4 custom maps with this one being #5. I will tell you folks this is the best my Warrior has ever run. I have zero flat and or dead spots through out my entire rpm range. Nothing noticeable to me. I had zero back fires / pops during all of my deceleration stages, which is where I would experience 90% of my issues with unspent fuel igniting in the exhaust chambers. I can not stress enough how important it is to find yourself an educated, experienced Dyno Technician. Craig is The Master Tuner and to any of you Warrior Rider's close enough to this area to have Craig tune your Warrior it is well worth the trip and money invested. Just send him a PM. He will get back to you in due time. Very Happy!

 

[darkstar]

Wow....very impressive #'s you got there my friend! The propipe would put you over the top in power[/emoticons/emotion-5.gif][/emoticons/emotion-2.gif].

quote:Originally posted by 108CI_Warrior

DarkStar, awesome numbers. You have me by a nose. I may have to get rid of the big shots and go with the propipe. The torque on these monsters are almost as awesome as this forum.