[gchalifo]

Howdy folks,


I looked through pages and pages of threads to see if there was a thread I could sort of use for posting questions and answers for people who folks who are either painting themselves or considering it. Thought I would start here and if the moderators would like to make this one of those "sticky topics" thats cool.


SO let me get things rolling with a couple general questions.





1. whats the difference between acrylic enamel and acrylic urethane in terms of performance, looks, feel, workability with the spray guns? is one product easier to use than the other? if given a choice which would be the more highly recommended?


I'm considering going to a whole new color this winter and would like to start planning. Shopping around for paint and prices for my new base coat. Kind of I guess bored with the indigo (even know I modified it last year).


thanks for your input painters!!!

 

[gchalifo]

In keeping with the forums rules and how to's I requested a sticky or forum be created to started collecting all of our paint questions and suggestions and how to's etc.

In the mean time....while that is being looked at, I'd like to talk about CLEARS....

Lookin for some input from those who I have learned so much from but specificaly about clears. In this case Urethane Clears. My understanding is Urethan , 2 part clears cure as hard as a rock. There are all kinds of brands of clears and all types as well.

My question is...regarding Urethane clears, can you recommend a few differant brands that produce GREAT results, and maybe some that produce OK results, so we have a price range of materials to select from.

I have used 5-Star Xtreme Klearkote for the past 4 years and LOVE the results, to the tune of like $100. per gallon not including the activator.

Any other good product suggestions would be appreciated.

thanks/g

 

[btk572]

the acrylic and acrylic urathane are basically the same but in most cases the urathane has an activator to convert it .(uc 35) hok house of color clear is a very serious contender in the shine ,holdout,and ability to resist oils,gas,and other chemicals . not very many clears even 2 part will hold up to gas getting on it without turning flat and needing worked by sanding and buffing after the gas hits it . hok uc35 will not turn flat from gas and is a very good clear,but you must use it exactly as directed not just dump stuff together and say thats close enuff. the amount of coats at one time is critical!just about all the dupont clears can be buffed weeks and months down the road if needed as with some of the other brands ,but uc35 buffing must be done in the workable window it has or as stated it is a very hard to buff clear.some of the off brand clears are ok for a bike or a nice car because they are left out in the everyday elements to sun burn and fade, but they will flatten real easy left in the elements. most of the time its all what a guy wants .one guy will spray cheap clear on his own stuff to save a buc and just live with what it does over time,but if someone sprayed it for him no matter the cost of the paint job meaning how cheap. the customer would be right back bitchin about its loosing its shine and so on. in the paint world you get what you pay for and in most cases there is a big reason why one paint cost big money and one doesnt. if you know and understand how a product works and the best way to use it you will probably do a good job with it ,versus trying a system you have never sprayed before even if its the best product on the market .you will find with your new loaded question of paint that there will be 10 painters and probably 8-9 different answers so get ready for the facts, every painter is different! thats just paint then you will progress directly into art work and graphics im sure , this will be a good read for all,btk572

 

[limotinted]

btk pretty much nailed it. There really is no standard set of answers for what you are asking. Different painters have different styles and different products and systems will work different when used by different people. Over the years and lots of paint jobs you learn tricks that will make things come out exponentially better. I can do body and paint work. But the paint on my bike is hok candy red, hok marblizer, and hok clear over the top. I have that paint done by a friend of mine who is way more experienced in that type of painting (the candy especially) and the result is 10X better than if I did it myself.

My best advice would be to stop by and bike shop and see if they have a old trash tank or fender laying around that you can have to practice on. Then go home and play around with different types of paint and see what works best for you.

 

[christok]

Back in the day I had good ;luck with Dupont and PPG. The Dupont was nice because it had a quick flash time and since I did not have a booth and was painting outside, it would flash before too much dust or bugs got into it.


Irrespective of the urethane you use there is or was a big problem for a health point of view. I don't know if the new water-borne clears have Isocyanates in them but if you are using a clear that has isocyanates in them then be sure you have a mask that is good for these chemicals because they will kill you. You need to be completely covered because they can get into your system through cuts, through your eyes etc. You should wear a hooded painter suit with gloves.The best repirator to use is the type that has a completely independant air supply usually located outside of the booth so the air you breath is not contaminated.


I cannot stress the importance of this ISOCYANATES KILL. They don't care about race, religion, or sex; if you breath them they will kill you.


Be sure to read the safety data sheet of any paint you use


My friend who is a painter by trade, uses House of Colour products

 

[btk572]

i have and will always tell guys directly ,DO NOT PAINT WITH TODAYS NEW PAINTS IN A GARAGE THAT IS HOOKED TO YOUR HOUSE! for the exact reason of just about all 2 and 3 part systems today carry heavy isocyanates ,it is just part of the chemistry of urathanes . and to paint with urathanes you must be able to really move air thru your paint area to get the overspray out ,but you must catch the wet overspray in a wet mat or fan prefilter so only vapors are exhausted. the next thing is the fact that the paint is breathing for alot longer as it dries and releases vaoprs that are very harmful its not just the overspray that carries isocyanates and other chemicals. thats why the good old days of laquer paint was so great ,but it just doesnt holdup worth crap comapably to the urathanes of today,but they were alot safer and easy to scuff and buff into a very nice finish. btk572

 

[sangathor]

I moved this topic to the how-to forum and made it sticky for the next 12 months (which is as long as I can stick something) remind me in a year and I will re-stick it.

 

[gchalifo]

this will be a good read for all,

Love the initial input from other painters with experience. Especially the "CAUTIONS" about the toxins we have to be aware of when painting.

So about CLEARS

BTK makes some great points about everyone having different tastes and abilities to make things happen with different products. Personally I believe that all the professional painters were once DIYers like me/us. For now, whereas I paint know ones bike but my own I am my biggest critic. Also I am very budget oriented. I bought a gallon of 5-star Xtreme Klear Kote like 3 years ago, and have done several paint jobs to my bike....at least one paint jobs for the last 3 years. The end result of using this clear was very nice for the money. I believe I paid just under $100. for the clear and medium hardner. The clear color sanded very nicely, and buffed out like glass. I was very happy with my 3rd paint job compared to my 1st. It also holds up extremely well to gas/oil or other contaminants....I mean I have had a few drops/slurs of gas when tanking up and have not seen any affects at all on the tank. That all said, I'd be curious as to the difference between say 5-Star Xtreme and say HOK UC-35 clear.....basicaly the same priceish.....does that mean the same resultsish?

Hmmm.

I may have to try to see if there is any diff.....and let you all know, as I am now officially out of clear/hardner....time to restock.

 

[pdiddy]

This is the clear being used on my tins:


http://nanotechwire.com/news.asp?nid=560&ntid=122&pg=1


I'm going withHarley Davidson black with very fine gold flake and the above clear. My concern was durability, shine, and swirl marks, the painterdoing my tins has produced some great results with this clear that I've seen. Nothing worse than some swirl marks from apoorly done shine job.


I thought house ofkolor products where for driving your bike around in a trailor and showing it off for the camera. Didn't think durability the real motivator for spraying something with HOK.

 

[pdiddy]

Ibelieve this may be the clear (I won't know for sure until I get the codes):


https://buyat.ppg.com/refinishproductcatalog/viewproduct.aspx?productid=cd55daa4-af80-4d34-8910-ba1f3310db82


We'll see how it turns out. I was basically looking for a black paint job with no swirl marks and shined up to the max. I'll post pictures in my gallery if I ever get the tins back.

 

[pdiddy]

Or maybe this? Heck it's one of them...


https://buyat.ppg.com/refinishproductcatalog/viewproduct.aspx?productid=966a4863-6316-4678-98ee-f5edaa3f0786

 

[btk572]

we are already talking isocyanate loaded paint the clear you are looking to use is 2 part and the hardener is the isocyanate in the mix. and we have to assume that we are talking base clear ,so the base is a fast dry and the clear is the shine part of the equation, or we could be talking a 2 part base that would work without the clear even. the next thing to look for in a clear is what are its uses and advantages. hok clear has uv protectants and chemical resistance ,among other things,it is one of the few clears that you could do a 10 or 12 coat paint job with and it wouldnt be a problem its designed for the big layer build up ,but done in a certain way to ensure proper drying and build up and not blowing up . alot of others can only be safely stacked or built up over a longer dry time of several weeks or more . i have been spraying paint for 35 years and i have sprayed alot of different brands, the biggest thing is what you want for a finished product and what you get for the money. NOTE, the real trick to a killer paint job does not come out of the painter or the gun, it comes from the attention to detail in the base prep all the way to the time for paint ,then its what you do with the paint after its cured or dry,real show paint jobs dont just come out of the nozzle of the gun, they are worked into a great paint job, sanding ,preping,sanding,sanding, buff,polish,micro polish,and seal. a painter cant paint a dent or ripple out of a panel and he doesnt paint them into a panel. it all starts at the bottom if each step isnt perfect then the top will show it ,metallic laying wrong,a modeled area,dry spray,light coating not covering fully,paint reactions,solvent pop or reactions,mechanical adhesion problems, chemical adhesion problems ,sand scratches,buffing swirles,buff pad burns,and the list goes on so as you can see its not just loading a gun and splashing paint at a part, it is a seriously detailed process, btk572

 

[Gav]

PHEW....BTK...If I thought spraying a colour and a couple of coats of lacquer were going to be that difficult when I first started, I'd probably be a taxi driver or something by now.


There's no real trick to a 'killer' paint job, it's just practice.....all the time...and a little imagination......just as any other trade.


gchalifo....


getting back to lacquer, there's dozens of different brands, which can all be used very successfully. They all have UV protection in them or nobody would buy them after a year. Only thing I would say is, stay away from UHS (ultra high solid) lacquers. Conditions and the application have to be perfect for these to work properly.


Gav.

 

[btk572]

come on Gav, you paint and know the drill the thing i was really pushing in my post was the fact that prep and attention to detail as far as edges bottoms very small chips or scratches that someone who doesnt paint every day might not think about and start spraying to later find out it didnt hide in the coats,or a small wave to the touch of your hand or feel might not seem bad until you put real nice shinny paint on it and by then its to late to fix it. if its worth painting it should be worth a good effort to make it nice and learning as you go these days can be real expensive as far as paint and materials. i will always stand behind the fact that a real nice paint job doesnt just come out of the gun! even the best painter will have a mist spray texture as a final coat ,the real paint job comes from sanding buffing and polishing. now the nicer you paint it the easier it will be to work into a nice glass like surface thats for sure. there arent alot of laquers over here and thats why alot of guys talk about the 2 part sytems of urathane and such. btk572

 

[pdiddy]

My dad has 40 years of time with paint. He now sells the stuff to body shops in the area. I agree the job doesn't come from the nozzle. Learned that just with rattle can jobs. I was told that clear will shine up nicely and hold up well provided the right process/equipment was used. I'm not into air brushed work so my emphasis was on quality of materials/clear. I looked into HOK as he has the paint chips for that. Since I choose black I didn't see the point. He teamed up with a painter he knows and they came up with that clear with a HD black. I suppose we'll see how it turns out. I know nothing about paint but will share my experience with this clear and post up some pictures when the tins eventually come back. -Paul

 

[arizonawarrior]

This is helpful to read, and takes away some of the 'dread'because its obvious any of us non-painters who set out on a new venture such as painting tins will for sure make mistakes. I like the suggestion to just jump-in and spray a few odd items and have some fun getting the feel of it.I think its important to do excellent detailed prep on the thing you're going to paint and keep. But while learning to spray its probably less important to prep perfectly, and more important just to get the spray gun in-hand and shoot away. It sounds like fun too.

PHEW....BTK...If I thought spraying a colour and a couple of coats of lacquer were going to be that difficult when I first started, I'd probably be a taxi driver or something by now.


There's no real trick to a 'killer' paint job, it's just practice.....all the time...and a little imagination......just as any other trade.


gchalifo....


getting back to lacquer, there's dozens of different brands, which can all be used very successfully. They all have UV protection in them or nobody would buy them after a year. Only thing I would say is, stay away from UHS (ultra high solid) lacquers. Conditions and the application have to be perfect for these to work properly.


Gav.

 

[btk572]

if you can get some shots of it right after painting and then shots of it buffed out to compare the differences between them and what a great buff job will do to a good spray job, thats what people need to see. black is a simple color compared to candies and 3 stage or more paint jobs ,but black has to be perfect in the body work area to be really killer looking,btk572

 

[arizonawarrior]

Keeping this separate on purpose.


The way the OP started out this topic caught my attention because it seemed to invite experienced painters to offer step-by-step how-to tidbits and maybe even some pics so that completely-inexperienced guys like me could see how-to steps in plain language. There's nobody anywhere near me to learn from (when the time comes) and that could be awhile yet because I don't have an appropriate workspace for painting.


Its no secret around here that one day I would like to teach myself to paint tins by trial and error. Its not at the top of the list yet, so I realize I am probably among the last guys here who will get to take advantage of any how-to's that get posted here over the coming weeks and months. Maybe that's good, because candidly most everything already posted here sorta seems like you have to already know some stuff to really understand it.


For one, I won't care about shooting match bullets until after I've shot a few thousand rounds of cheap lead. I hope over time there's pics and how-to posts starting from the beginning and taking small steps that we can use in the real world while we have our learner's permit to paint lol.


And hopefully it will include good tips to help buy cheap learner's equipment, and spray techniques to practice with cheap coatings while learning, maybe even a little about removing the stock coatings (or where to have it removed by a machine haha). Then maybe when we're finally qualified to get 'into the match' without wasting hundreds of dollars and totally embarrassing ourselves, having some time under our belts we could use atips towardselecting and using the better coatings, and what paint guns aregood enough to hit the bullseye withoutscrewing up our tins.


But all that is in the future. It would be great to start with a couple tips for those of us needing the very basic basics lol.

 

[gchalifo]

wow absolutely agree....and I would be happy to share my experiences so far. I certainly can start with some basics and would be happy to post up some pics as well.

Being as you hit the nail on the head with a "work space" sort of comment I'd like to offer my suggestion. I'll do so with a seperate post and maybe call it "HOME MADE SPRAY BOOTH" or something like that......like you said, got to start with an actual space to set up and start practicing.

g

 

[pdiddy]

I'm having a black job done. It's a 2010 HD blackwith blue and goldvery fine flake. I thought it was gold flake only. Wrong.I can see the blue huewhen held up in the light.Very sublte though.I also posted up that the clear would be the PPGwith nano particles. Wrong there too! The clear is some sort of urathane. I got the rear fender and side covers back. I put the side covers on and am waiting on the seals (clear protective squares on the stock fender) that I ordered from Yamaha to show up before putting the fender back on.


My question to the painters out here. My tins were done by a painter and "cooked" in the booth. I was told to wait a month or so before hitting it with a coat of wax in order to allow the clear to harden fully and allow the tins to breathe. Should this be long enough? I was planning to wait until around Feb/March before waxing it really good. Also, assuming some sort of "automotive grade" urathane clear was used what type of wax would be best for the first coat? Discuss!