[TECK]

Hi all,

I'm a little confused with the information I found into forums, related to the bolt measurements for the Carlini Super Sweeps.
I ordered those bars from Pacific and they don't come with any bolts.

From reading more into forums, I found a post where it says I need bolts with these dimensions: 1/2" - 13 - 2 1/2".
Unfortunatelly, I'm used to the metric system and it does not makes sense to me what I need to order.

What would be the bolt size, if I use measurements like: 8MM x 1.25P x 65MM? Or please let me know what the above measurements mean.

I was reading also on the forums that if you go purchase a set of 1/2" bolts that are threaded all the way to the bolt head, you will not need to drill out the stock cable guide. So, could you be kind and give me the new dimensions, for the full threaded bolts?

Thanks for your help, guys.

 

[Scoper50]

Your asking what 1/2' - 13 - 2 1/2' means as far as bolts go. Simple explanation. 1/2 is the diameter of the bolt. 1/2 of an inch is equal to 12.7mm. The 13 is the thread pitch. I'm a little bit confused myself as to how that translates to the metric system. So your on your own on the thread pitch. The 2 1/2 inch is the length of the bolt. 2 1/2 inches equals 63.5mm


I did these conversions using mathmatical conversions I have stored in my brain. I would assume bolt manufacturers round the numbers up or down. But that should get you on the right track. Sorry I couldn't answer your question as specifically as you wanted

 

[Scoper50]

Also keep in mind that a metric bolt is going to be different than a SAE bolt. Thats why they make make standard and metric wrenches. The threads and different and the head of the bolt/nut is different. If your applicationcalls for astandard bolt I'd order standard bolts rather than trying to convert them to metric.


Eventually the SAE system will be phased out. Even american cars are almost all metric these days. Although I'm used to measuring things in inches and feet. I don't think I could get used to meters.

 

[arizonawarrior]

Click HOME or FORUMS then type this in the top-rightsearch field: "Carlini AND groupid:2" (no quote marks). Then PM some guys who have Carlini bars and get the exact bolt size. Group #2 is All Galleries, so this search string searches all the galleries for posts or pics with Carlini in the title. It won't search the Mods and Accessoriesdescription of course (however Google can help there).


This is the resultingsearch string:


http://rswarrior.com/search/SearchResults.aspx?q=Carlini+AND+groupid%3a2&o=Relevance

 

[TECK]

Chris, thanks for information. It is easier to understand now the bolt measurements.

It looks like I don't need a metric bolt. All I have to do is order 2 x 1/2" - 13 - 2 1/2" socket head bolts, they will match the Carlini's thread. As Mike suggested, I will PM other warriors who purchased the bars from Pacific. Other vendors probably ship their bars with bolts, so that explains the lack of detailed information.

For reference, this is the post where I originally found the bolt measurements. It might help others.

 

[arizonawarrior]

[deleted by arizonawarrior]


Is there a flat washer used under the head, and blue loctite 243 maybe?


I know you'll re-use the existing flat washer under the risers.


BTW bolts with full thread are not as strong. The shoulder being bigger diameter adds a lot. Don't know if its critical to this application but figured I'd toss the info out there.

 

[parkinglot]

I have carlini bars. I used a 1/2 inch 13Thread per inch 2 and 1/2" long. grade 8. I am not sure I would use stainless, and drilling that little wire guide out was simple, I would do that again before using a grade 8 threaded the whole way, which the reason I couldnt find is like what was recently stated, they wouldnt be as strong. I used redhorses guide and it worked fine, but I bough 2 and 2-1/2 inch bolts and chose to use the 2 and a half.. If you wanna wain until next weeken, I'll pick you up a few grade 8's and send them to ya..cant be but a coule bucks for bolts and freight...

 

[NorCalWarrior]

Your asking what 1/2' - 13 - 2 1/2' means as far as bolts go. Simple explanation. 1/2 is the diameter of the bolt. 1/2 of an inch is equal to 12.7mm. The 13 is the thread pitch. I'm a little bit confused myself as to how that translates to the metric system. So your on your own on the thread pitch. The 2 1/2 inch is the length of the bolt. 2 1/2 inches equals 63.5mm


I did these conversions using mathmatical conversions I have stored in my brain. I would assume bolt manufacturers round the numbers up or down. But that should get you on the right track. Sorry I couldn't answer your question as specifically as you wanted

Just to avoid any further confusion,and possiblyto cause some

Even if you convert the units for a standard fastener to metic (or vice versa)you'll wind up with a spec for a non-exisitent fastener so you always have to use like for like.


Standard fasteners use threads per inch (TPI), so for a1/2 x 13 x 2-1/2 fastener the 13 means threads per inch, or 13 threads in an inch. So if you measured off an inch of threaded fastener and counted the "peaks" of the threads you would count13 in an inch. You can convert this to thread pitch by dividing 1" by 13 to get 0.0769, or 1 thread every 0.0769 inches.Similarly you can convert back toTPIby dividing 1" by the pitch of 0.0769 to get 13 TPI. However as a rule of thumb standard threads are called out in TPI.


Metric fasteners use thread pitch, so for an M10 x 1.5 x 20 fastener the 1.5 means thread pitch or 1 thread every 1.5mm. Really no way to convert this to TPI since you wouldn't want to spec a Metric fastener with english units (i.e. inches) and I've never seen a TPC or threads per centimeter callout

 

[TECK]

I have carlini bars. I used a 1/2 inch 13Thread per inch 2 and 1/2" long. grade 8. I am not sure I would use stainless, and drilling that little wire guide out was simple, I would do that again before using a grade 8 threaded the whole way, which the reason I couldnt find is like what was recently stated, they wouldnt be as strong. I used redhorses guide and it worked fine, but I bough 2 and 2-1/2 inch bolts and chose to use the 2 and a half.. If you wanna wain until next weeken, I'll pick you up a few grade 8's and send them to ya..cant be but a coule bucks for bolts and freight...

Thanks for the grade 8 advice, Dave.

I just found an article that explains why Grade 8 is better then stainless bolts.
Basically, stainless bolts are a lot weaker then Grade 8 ones... slightly stronger than Grade 2 hardware store junk bolts, and in nearly all cases, significantly less than Grade 5.

I will try to get the bolts at the local hardware store. If I cannot find them (most probably), I will take up your offer.
Just curious, how is the Grade 8 marked on the socket head bolt? Grade 8 bolts have 6 marks on the head:

Cheers,

Floren

 

[alanh]

I have carlini bars. I used a 1/2 inch 13Thread per inch 2 and 1/2" long. grade 8. I am not sure I would use stainless, and drilling that little wire guide out was simple, I would do that again before using a grade 8 threaded the whole way, which the reason I couldnt find is like what was recently stated, they wouldnt be as strong. I used redhorses guide and it worked fine, but I bough 2 and 2-1/2 inch bolts and chose to use the 2 and a half.. If you wanna wain until next weeken, I'll pick you up a few grade 8's and send them to ya..cant be but a coule bucks for bolts and freight...

+1 ..

..1/2"-13 x 2-1/2" lg (minimum) soc hd bolt isn'tgoing to be thd'd under the head

and i would recommend using a Standard Zinc-Plated Alloy Steel Socket Head Cap Screw which is more than twice the strength of a SS bolt as shown below. When all assembled the bolt head isn't really visible.


It's not necessary to remove the top tree to open up the cable guide holes IMO. Leave 1 of the stock risers in place to restrain the cable guide and come from the top side of the tree with your drill. With the head lightpushed to the sideyou can use a Dremel fromunderneath.


FYI, the Yamaha Billet Risers that are metric come with a M12 x 70mm lg soc bolt in zinc trim! Keep in mind that these risers are full thd'd and also come with a thin wall hollow steel bushing to perfectly center the bolts in the riser bushings that are 14mm I.D. The 1/2" bolt for the Carlini barwill have nearly .060" clearance within the tree bushings so you'll want to properly center the bar bolts when torquing or add a shim, etc. You might want to ask others what they have done for this install andif they reused the 2-OEM flat spacer washers on top of the tree bushings!

 

[TECK]

Thanks Alan for the detailed explanation, especially related to the .060" (1.5MM) clearance within the tree bushings.

I was wondering how you guys addressed the problem Alan explains above.
You might want to
ask others what they have done for this install andif they reused the
2-OEM flat spacer washers on top of the tree bushings!


Did you used a head bolt bushing? I believe a stainless flanged sleeve bearing is good:

What dimensions do you recommend? Alan, please give us your expert opinion.

Thanks for posting more details, it will help also others.

 

[parkinglot]

The 1/2" bolt for the Carlini barwill have nearly .060" clearance within the tree bushings so you'll want to properly center the bar bolts when torquing or add a shim, etc. You might want to ask others what they have done for this install andif they reused the 2-OEM flat spacer washers on top of the tree bushings!

I centered them and cranked em down..There was a torque spec, and I used a torque wrench, just cant remember what it was..I did re-use the OEM flat washers. I can't remember, so I'll take a look at my buke saturday, but I think I used lockwasher also. They bars havent come off yet

.. PM me if you cant get the bolts in in canadia teck, I will be more that happy to hit home de'pot or lowes,,I am going there saturday anyhow to get some more goodies to hook up some duct work at the house....Here is redhorses guide to the baron radius bar install, which I found very helpful during my install, esecially the part about the clutch perch..29ft/lbs torqu on the bolts..Dave


http://www.freewebs.com/roadstarwarrior/radius_install_1of2.htm

 

[parkinglot]

Just curious, how is the Grade 8 marked on the socket head bolt? Grade 8 bolts have 6 marks on the head:

I believe grade 8 is 5 marks on the head..

 

[arizonawarrior]

Alan,


I know stainless has less capacity, however since the applicationis handlebar risers, and the stock M12 (handlebar holder - lower) riser bolt is spec'd to 29 ft/lbs torque (page 2-24), I wanted to ask if you're saying the 18-8 stainless socket head screw is under-capacity for the application, or if you're saying its simpy better to use all the bolt strength you can get for the handlebar riser bolts. The 1/2" 18-8 stainlessscrew torque value is 750 pounds, and the application calls for 29 pounds. I'm asking because at times the fasteneris nowhere near being the weak link when applied in one case,but is a weak link when other factors are considered.


18-8 stainless is known to not have galvanic actionwith aluminum so no 'dissimilar metals' issue exists. This type bolt has a very deep and solid allen head socket and its rare to damage a socket. But it costs more, maybe its just a waste of money?


Just to save you time here's somecharts stolen from the web at random Iposted only unified right coarse and fine.

Mechanical Properties of Stainless Steel Socket Cap Screws

Nominal Size
Tensile Strength (lbs.,min.)
Yield Strength (lbs.,min.)
Body Section
Tightening Torque (In.-Lbs.)

UNRC
UNRF
UNRC
UNRF
Single Shear Strength (lbs.,min.)
UNRC
UNRF

2
295
-
185
-
260
3.8
-

4
480
-
240
-
350
6.0
-

6
725
-
363
-
375
15.0
-

8
1120
-
560
-
670
28.0
-

10
1400
1600
701
800
950
40.0
46.0

1/4
2550
2910
1273
1455
2200
95.0
109.0

5/16
4200
4645
2100
2320
3450
170.0
188.0

3/8
6100
7025
3100
3510
4970
301.0
341.0

1/2
11350
-
5675
-
8840
750.0
-

Mechanical Properties of Alloy Steel Socket Cap Screws

Nominal Size
Tensile Strength (lbs.,min.)
Yield Strength (lbs.,min.)
Body Section
Tightening Torque (In.-Lbs.)

UNRC
UNRF
UNRC
UNRF
Single Shear Strength (lbs.,min.)
UNRC
UNRF

0
-
320
-
290
305
-
2.6

1
-
500
-
450
450
-
4.8

2
665
-
600
-
625
7.5
-

3
875
-
790
-
830
11.0
-

4
1090
-
975
-
1060
16.0
-

5
1430
-
1290
-
1325
24.0
-

6
1640
1825
1470
1645
1615
30.0
34.0

8
2520
2650
2270
2385
2280
55.0
58.0

10
3150
3600
2835
3240
3060
79.0
90.0

1/4
5725
6550
5150
5900
5295
200.0
230.0

5/16
9430
10440
8490
9395
8285
415.0
460.0

3/8
13950
15805
12555
14225
11910
740.0
845.0

7/16
19135
21365
17220
19230
16200
1190.0
1305.0

1/2
25540
28780
22990
25905
21175
1800.0
2065.0

5/8
38400
43500
34550
39150
31300
3400.0
3800.0

3/4
56750
-
51100
-
45050
6000.0
-

7/8
78500
-
70700
-
61350
8250.0
-

1
103000
-
92700
-
80100
12500.0
-

1-1/4
164700
-
148250
-
125100
25000.0
-

1-1/2
238800
-
215950
-
180200
43500.0
-





I stole this from the web too, in case helpful. Its admittedly generic but applies to this case with respect toselecting hardware.


----
Sizing and Strength: How big a screw is needed?


At first thought, sizing a screw for a given load would seem to be a simple matter. If you need to hold 100 lbs, find a screw that can hold 100 lbs before it yields...


But things are not so simple. If a screw can withstand 100 lbs of force before yielding, it is recommended for a number of reasons (discussed in the next section) that it be tightened to about 80 lbs of tension / clamping force just for installation alone. Does that mean that it can only withstand another 20 lbs of external load before it yields? Why would we tighten a screw so much if we're using up the majority of its strength just to hold it in place? It turns out that only a portion of the external load is seen by the bolt, a rough estimate is about 1/3, but this depends on lots of things.


Here's a rough guide for picking a screw or bolt for a given load:


Start off with the load that needs to be held in tension, call this F. If you have a shear (sideways) load, you should design so that friction or dowell pins will bear the load and not the bolt, but if this isn't an option note that shear strength is 60% of tensile strength in many steels.


We'll use a safety factor of 2.5, so the design load is now 2.5F. Now we need to select a screw with enough strength so that it can withstand the combined external load and pre-load from tightening. Assuming that 80% of the bolt's proof strength is being used up in preload, that leaves 20% to handle 1/3 of the external load. Or in other words, we're looking for a bolt where 60% of its proof strength is greater than the load.


Let's try an example: What size grade 2 bolt is necessary to hold 100 lbs? The proof strength of Grade 2 bolts between .24 and .75 inches is 55 ksi (thousand pounds per square inch), and 60% of this is 34.2 ksi. So, we're looking for a bolt with a tensile area greater than our load (2.5*100 lbs) divided by 33 ksi, or .0076 square inches. A #6 UNC should work. For perspective the diameter of a #6 screw is .138", (1/8 = .125"). If this seems small, keep in mind that the ultimate strength (breaking strength) of a Grade 2 bolt is 74 ksi, so a #6 screw could theoretically hold 672 lbs in pure tension. If you're wondering why bolts you see in cars and weight machines are so large, it's partly to gaurd against loosening and fatigue failure in addition to safety factors.


What about changing loads? According to this Unbrako whitepaper on the Fastener Act, over 85% of failures are due to fatigue and not a simple overloading situation. Think about breaking a paper clip, which is easier: bending it back and forth or out-right pulling it apart? If you have an oscillating load and want a joint to last forever, the best advice we can offer is to multiply the anticipated load by 10 or more, and even this may not be sufficient. Steel can handle about half of its ultimate strength in an alternating load, but add in the pre-load stress and something called a "Stress Concentration Factor" due to the threads and the problem gets more complicated quickly. Here's a good explanation of these effects along with a lot of other great screw information.


----


Alan - Thanks in Advance!

 

[alanh]

Arizona Warrior ... looks like the formatting was lost in the chart. Tensile strength is always higher than yield strength.... the torque value in the chart is expressed in INCH POUNDS if i'm not mistaken so you need to divide by 12


Galvanic corrosion and or electrolysis isn't an issue at all as the riser bolts are in contact with the lower chrome cable guide, the steel riser bushings, steel washerand the chromed double tee bar.


The mat'l of the zinc plated bolt i suggestedhas a tensile strength of180,000 lbs/sq~in

[*]
The approxmaxstrength of the 1/2" dia bolt is the Area x 180,000 = 0.20 x 180,000 = 36,000 lbs which is probably more than 3 times the strength of the SS boltand less $'s i suspect.[/list]


If you should ever accidentally drop your bike on the bars, more than likely the SS fastener will bend because of the low yield strength.

 

[arizonawarrior]

Excellent points, I especially appreciate that it would be sorta hard to remove a bent bolt from under there.