Great post Mike....truely!!....i have heard from some guys this side of the pond...who feel they would love to have a momento gift win

....one guy really wanted the patch for instance...as a memo...and another the levers from cadfather as a momento of how hard he works at that polishing...me i just love having stuff owned by another like minded bro...on my bike...[call me sentimental...but i believe owning a warrior rightly includes this sentiment] - in any event some euro guys enter a giveaway hoping to win...and when it never happens for this side of the pond it's a bit of a heart break

...i agree if the item can't leave the country of origin..it just needs to be said in the beginning and most guys i know would accept that....and just not dip themselves in for the draw


Maybe ...maybe ...we could organise a giveaway both sides of the pond...not necessarily together....so the shipping /tax/etc isn't an issue?





this isn't a biggy for me..just that some guys do get disappointed and if they never had a chance to win for all the reasons Mike has given...they should be told of the problems of a world wide give away...maybe we could title them - world wide....usa/canada....or euro... just so everyone knows from the start





cheers guys......the give away is not why i'm here...it's everything else in truth - cheers tom

 

First of all I have to make a small (but important) disclaimer..........

I did not become a member to win give aways.

I donate to the site to keep it going - not to win prizes!

I have no "sour grapes" and I don't want to offend anyone.

Nobody should get out of the pram and spit their dummy over these questions! [:'(]


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


In my opinion..... if the give away does not include members outside the lower 48, that fact should be clearly stated.

I just wonder how the draw is made, because - you have to agree - it looks (and I stand to be corrected),

as if nobody outside USA / Canada, has ever won a site give away?

I vote that the post which states the rules, should show that (for whatever reasons) it can not include "outside" members.

Logistics and costs never get mentioned - so surely that can't be the reason! Has anyone ever asked?


I understand that there are certain items that can not be shipped overseas, (like oil etc) and Mike has clearly explained that in his latest give away.


It is a nice feature of the site, just a bit of fun, and I applaud anyone who is good enough to give something away,

but if the give away was stopped tomorrow, I honestly wouldn't lose any sleep.

What's the score with it..... how does it work?




Just trying to be devils advocate here.......

 

I put some thought into this and I am going to be to as honest as I can be without upsetting the folks who so kindly are Sponsoring this Months Site Giveaway, but I am not happywith the decisionto sponsor a Site Giveaway and add restrictions to the folks who are Site Supporting Members from abroad or outside of the US and or Canada. The Forum Rules specifically state that all Site Supporting Members are Eligible for the Monthly Site Giveaway. I do not know what part of that rule some of youus do not understand? That includes all of Europe, Australia, Japan, Saudi etc.... Yes, I understand the shipping cost and or restrictionsthat would be involved, but maybe you all should have thought about that prior to your decision on giving an oil change as the Site Giveaway.


Moving forward from this point on. Folks who want to Sponsor a Site Giveaway need to take into account all of our members.

 

So let's add that to the understanding of the rules and see if we can come up with a method to increase give-aways internationally.

The cost of freight can be significant. Generally all countries seem to accept USPS, FedEX, UPS with minimum delays. I always shop all three, and USPS tends to be cheaper than UPS or FedEx but you have to pay extra for a signature and in some countries you can't get proof of delivery by parcel post so you have to consider UPS or FedEx. In any event, it seems this sort of info will become necessary in the future. Just as a discussion example, here's the USPS stuff for USA members to export:

Parcel Post Export Customs Forms: http://www.usps.com/international/customs.htm

USPS Domestic and International Parcel Post: http://ircalc.usps.gov/

Although we heard this price is going to $49.95 with the 2010 postage increase, right now the flat-rate boxes are $41.95 to most countries including UAE, Albania, Australia, BVI, Finland, Germany, Ireland and the UK, and the orient. CAN is currently $25.95. This will be on top of the freight from the supplier to your door since suppliers don't seem to like exported drop-shipments (I've tried). Then you'll have to fit it into (for example) the USPS flat-rate box. Flat rate boxes can weigh max 20 pounds and box sizes (in inches) are 8.5x11x5.5 inches or 11-7/8x3-3/8x13-5/8 (supplied by USPS). Anything bigger or heavier costs more. Remember to ask your shipper which customs forms you need to attach to the box (one form for sure, sometimes a second form too).

Ask the shipper about items that might be illegal to export. If the winner is in certain countries in the Orient or the Gulf, don't send anything electronic or software-driven. I'd even avoid a Power Commander just to avoid Import problems on the other end.

We will need to buy insurance so the item can be replaced if received damaged. That requires 'proper packaging' and padding.

Finally, if the rules allow the give-away post to specify the winner pays the freight, we will also need to work out reimbursing the costs associated with freight including currency-conversion fees on both ends. Many banks also charge a small fee on the receiving end in addition to the currency-converting fees.

A $100 USD hunk of chrome will cost another ~$60 USD to ship and insure. Sometimes it might be cheaper to buy it locally.

I put some thought into this and I am going to be to as honest as I can be without upsetting the folks who so kindly are Sponsoring this Months Site Giveaway, but I am not happywith the decisionto sponsor a Site Giveaway and add restrictions to the folks who are Site Supporting Members from abroad or outside of the US and or Canada. The Forum Rules specifically state that all Site Supporting Members are Eligible for the Monthly Site Giveaway. I do not know what part of that rule some of youus do not understand? That includes all of Europe, Australia, Japan, Saudi etc.... Yes, I understand the shipping cost and or restrictionsthat would be involved, but maybe you all should have thought about that prior to your decision on giving an oil change as the Site Giveaway. Moving forward from this point on. Folks who want to Sponsor a Site Giveaway need to take into account all of our members.

 

So let's add that to the understanding of the rules and see if we can come up with a method to increase give-aways internationally.

Light weight polished or chrome bits, patches, T-shirts, etc., etc., could all be sent air small packet and marked as a gift or used item, with a low value on the customs declaration form. Customs don't usually care too much for charging cents or pence, they look for larger amounts. eg. goods over £100 or $150. Obviously the winner from another country would pay theairmail costs. Surface mailwould be a complete waste of time waiting for the boat. Lol...I don't think other country members would be interested in winning liquids, oil, brake fluid, cleaners, etc. Mike.


Gav.

 

Yes. Of course if a group got together to provide a more substantial piece for the give-away item, which is an exciting thought, then you'd want to declare the correct money amount to match the insurance amount. Like if Jarv gave away braided stainless brake lines (j/k). Anyway, if someone gives away a $200 billet chrome item they would want it insured for replacement cost, and that insurance form is on the box with the customs document. So it all depends on the arrangement.

Yes, you are right, there is no surface "parcel post" from the USA to overseas, everything overseas "parcel post" is sent airmail. Obviously sending from USA to CAN and MEX may differ.

BTW I like the way you think!

So let's add that to the understanding of the rules and see if we can come up with a method to increase give-aways internationally.

Light weight polished or chrome bits, patches, T-shirts, etc., etc., could all be sent air small packet and marked as a gift or used item, with a low value on the customs declaration form. Customs don't usually care too much for charging cents or pence, they look for larger amounts. eg. goods over £100 or $150. Obviously the winner from another country would pay theairmail costs. Surface mailwould be a complete waste of time waiting for the boat. Lol...I don't think other country members would be interested in winning liquids, oil, brake fluid, cleaners, etc. Mike.


Gav.

 

Mike and Gav have made valid points

Firstly, the shipping issues that Mike brought up will generally apply to larger or heavier / bulky items.

But 99% of give aways are "trinkets" and not usually fenders or chrome engine covers etc.

As Gav says, the smaller / lighter items are simply post (cheap) and are hardly ever subject to customs BS.

The way I see it..... if a draw is made and an "outsider" wins the item, they are given the choice of whether to pay the shipping costs,

(customs fees and taxes would have to be dealt with on reciept - so are no problem for the shipper).

If the winner does NOT want to pay.....he shouldn't have put his name in the draw (he will know what the item is and the value before having entered)

The conditions of entering the draw MUST BE that the winner is committed to paying the shipping and will PayPal the costs prior to shipping.

I refer back to the obvious point that if you don't want to comply with those conditions - don't enter!


It the item IS something of real value etc...... who would NOT want to pay the shipping to get it????

To my knowledge, it has been quite a while since a "sponsored" type of prize has been offered - the give aways nowadays come generally from individuals.

BTW....if an item such as oil was to be offered, it can not go international - then that's fine! .......It happens!


This would of course not happen every month, so it would have to be accepted as being offered to a smaller audience.

The whole thing of "giving" should not be made so uncomfortable and difficult that nobody wants to participate!

If Darkstar (or another mod) has the final say on what can be offered, he will be able to use his judgement on what is and isn't good to go.

(I guess that's what currently happens anyway!) He would monitor how often a US only item is offered and perhaps try to encourage international love.

These conditions would be clearly shown in the give aways forum and the "giver" should cut -n- paste the rules post into the give away announcement.

That way a newbie or someone who simply didn't know about the rules would always be able to see the conditions prior to entering.

What if the person did not understand? - Another name would be picked.

Everything is subject to review and change (a bit like our bikes!) so if it doesn't work out - we can go to plan C.




How does that sound?

 

IMPORTANT NOTE!



I just need to add to my previous post - the "giver" can still offer to pay the shipping for US winners if he wishes.


Give aways are completely free to the lower 48. (I think that's how it currently works?)



The conditions of shipping / tax / etc that I have suggested, would apply to INTERNATIONAL winners.

 

Good points brought up. Thank you for the input. If Site Supporting Members from abroadare willing to pay the shipment of said products like this months giveaway then so be it. I appreciated that folks like Mike are contributing to the forum and supporting our site giveaway by donating items, its all good. We just need to state that shipping cost have to be covered by the winner instead of asking them not to participate. This should apply to this Months Giveaway as well. Thoughts? Input?

 

Since members are all over the world its hard to get together in a tavern to draw the names, although that would be fun! I think anyone who takes the time (and pain) to organize and pay for a give-away is an honorable person and the names they post were drawn fair and square. If someone wanted to give something to a particular person, why do a drawing? Drawings are a lot of work and a lot of pain sometimes, and its now going to be even more work.

I just wonder how the draw is made, because - you have to agree - it looks (and I stand to be corrected), as if nobody outside USA / Canada, has ever won a site give away?

 

What say we leave the existing Amsoil give-away as-is? All that will happen is the winner, if overseas, will feel like he had to pay to win the prize. Besides, our group isn't geared-up for the excess costs.

I hope nobody will minimize my thinking on this topic, we all think differently. I actually looked at many prizes before deciding on Amsoil provided thru AngrySal as our site supporting vendor. Some of the other possible prizes were by site-supporting-vendors, some were not. I tried for a prize that was the topic of lots of conversation on the forums.

Yes, Amsoil was selected even though the cost of shipping oil overseas is about the same as the cost of the oil. That was a huge problem and gave me heartburn but it was the best decision in this case. Even though Amsoil HQ said they don't ship overseas except to dealers and they don't have dealers in most countries. Keep in mind that USA laws make it hard for individuals to ship chemicals overseas plus the freight costs for these items are even higher and there's more paperwork. But the numbers added up and the oil was often-discussed in the forums and it was a good decision.

Even considering asking the winner to pay, the freight frankly just got too crazy, especially with currency-conversion and bank fees on both ends and overseas shipping insurance. Plus, then, the winner is paying for the prize, and some overseas guys still won't participate unless they know what it will cost them. Its a new, big, headache.

Anyway, the solution to the problem was obvious to me and finally I sent-in the give-away request for USA-48 because that is what our group agreed we could afford and it limited our financial risk. I think it was a sound decision.

This should apply to this Months Giveaway as well. Thoughts? Input?

 

I think anyone who takes the time (and pain) to organize and pay for a give-away is an honorable person and the names they post were drawn fair and square. If someone wanted to give something to a particular person, why do a drawing? Drawings are a lot of work and a lot of pain sometijmes

-

well put

 

What say we leave the existing Amsoil give-away as-is?

Totally agree Mike.

Even with future liquid give-aways.

****,I can't even get a 2oz bottle of House of Kolor paint sent over unless I chartered a boat. Lol...

 

If Site Supporting Members from abroadare willing to pay the shipment of said products like this months giveaway then so be it... We just need to state that shipping cost have to be covered by the winner instead of asking them not to participate. Thoughts? Input?

This sounds complete and right.


Shipping should be free to whatever country the give away item originates from, while shipping is to be paid by thewinner for give away items that have to be shipped outside the donators country of origin.


This would also allow members from other countries to step up and take part in sponsoring the give aways.

 

Justice - you hit the nail perfectly on the head!

If Site Supporting Members from abroadare willing to pay the shipment of said products like this months giveaway then so be it... We just need to state that shipping cost have to be covered by the winner instead of asking them not to participate. Thoughts? Input?

This sounds complete and right.


Shipping should be free to whatever country the give away item originates from, while shipping is to be paid by thewinner for give away items that have to be shipped outside the donators country of origin.



This would also allow members from other countries to step up and take part in sponsoring the give aways.

If Site Supporting Members from abroadare willing to pay the shipment of said products like this months giveaway then so be it... We just need to state that shipping cost have to be covered by the winner instead of asking them not to participate. Thoughts? Input?

This sounds complete and right.


Shipping should be free to whatever country the give away item originates from, while shipping is to be paid by thewinner for give away items that have to be shipped outside the donators country of origin.


This would also allow members from other countries to step up and take part in sponsoring the give aways.

That IS the answer.... free within the same country and winner pays shipping if its international!

That sounds perfectly fair to me.

As for Mikes give away, I have already said that I think it should stand.... and if a similar situation arises in the future, it would be treated the same.


That oil will make someone very happy!

 

Shipping should be free to whatever country the give away item originates from, while shipping is to be paid by thewinner for give away items that have to be shipped outside the donators country of origin.


This would also allow members from other countries to step up and take part in sponsoring the give aways.

As for Mikes give away, I have already said that I think it should stand....

Sounds more than fair to me too... and if winner fails to pay for shipping in a determined period... a runner up or second drawing should be held?


Also... if the Original "Give-Away" poster was willing to ship to local at a cost lets say $5.... and international would be lets say $20... should the international pay $20 or the diference $15?


LOL... just to make it a little more complicated...

or the shipping could always be on the winners dime.... Just thinking outloud here...


BTW: Arizona Warrior, I think USPS flatrate boxes can be up to 80lbs... but I'm not sure if thats just within USA, I've never shipped international... (PR is domestic)

 

True. I showed prices for the 5-pound to 20-pound range box since its likely to cover a lot of give away items, although shopping freight options is always a good idea. The USPS 20-pound-one-ounce to 70-pound weight (max) international parcel post charge from USPS is $346.25 from the USA to most countries, and size restriction is 42 inches long with girth+length not to exceed 79 inches. Its unlikely we would use that weight class - but wouldn't it be cool if we did!

One of the keys is air freight, so unless a few months in route by sea is acceptable, AK and HI, and the USVI and PR (and other territories) have the liquid problem too. But the prices are better: PR is $13.95 for 130-inch length+girth for 20-pound max (at this time anyway).

BTW: Arizona Warrior, I think USPS flatrate boxes can be up to 80lbs... but I'm not sure if thats just within USA, I've never shipped international... (PR is domestic)

 

I think the more difficult this becomes,fewer people will participate and more confusion will be created. Each added rule will (as always) solve one problem but cause others. The fewer rules the better.

 

Bump. Just once.

 

yo Mike - i agree..yet again....geesh

......notification of who can join in any particular giveaway is all that's needed....i'm sure not going to take offence..you've coverd it very well guys... now it's for the mods to pull it into shape...and then we can just move on...as we always do so well!!

i'm waiting for a uk member to give his Vmax away....[we seem to be increasing the chances of this daily now!!]...